Real Deal

Right. Is this another instance where I have to basically give you a full lineup of 14 players, so you know I'm talking about a real NBA game? Here, I'll do that, since I have to walk you through it. Team 1: Allen Iverson, Dwight Howard, James Jones, Raja Bell, Chuck Hayes, Joey Dorsey, Fabricio Oberto, Shannon Brown, Michael Finley, Steve Novak, Beno Udrih, God Shammgod, Pavel Podkolzin, and Brian Scalabrine Team 2: Chauncey Billups, Dwight Howard, James Jones, Raja Bell, Chuck Hayes, Joey Dorsey, Fabricio Oberto, Shannon Brown, Michael Finley, Steve Novak, Beno Udrih, God Shammgod, Pavel Podkolzin, and Brian Scalabrine How are offensive stats misleading? If you score 30 PPG for your career, it means you're an excellent scorer, does it not? If you shoot 60% from the foul line, it means you suck at free throws. If you throw 12 assists per game, you must be an excellent passer and teammate. If someone hits 45% from three while taking at least 2-3 per game, that means they are a good three-point shooter. If a player turns the ball over an average of 5 times a game throughout a season, they may just be turnover prone? Jordan finished great, shot the ball great...and that's why he can put up 50% shooting. There are no stats for holding your man on the defensive end, other than their own stats...and that's not definitive, either, because it doesn't represent a player's man defense (as it accounts for team defense as well). But offensive stats are per player, and cannot be assumed they are anyone else's stats. When you score a bucket, it's your bucket. When you throw an assist, it's yours. However, when your man doesn't score, it may be because he just missed the shot, and you left him open...or it may have been your teammate defending him on a switch. If I need to go more in-depth with that explanation also, just let me know.

I shouldn't have to hold your hand and step you through every post. Looking in, benching Iverson and placing Stuckey in the starting five as a PG was stupid. At the same time, putting Hamilton on the bench for Stuckey was also dumb. If Brown was still coaching the team, Stuckey would be the sixth man. Detroit went 15-15 without Iverson in their starting five (removing the two wins they had with Billups). That's on pace to win 41 games, instead of 39. That's still pathetic for a team with all that talent. What's funny is that Iverson and Hamilton played in the starting five together just 24 games. That's it. Funny enough, for 13 of them, Stuckey was also in there, which was STUPID. For the other 11, McDyess wasn't. STUPID again. Not even once did the Pistons try a five of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed and McDyess. That's why they lost 43 games. Yeah, Marbury did make $200 million...altogether. Do you think these guys are sticking it in the bank and not spending it? You say Iverson isn't that threat for a 40 anymore? He dropped 38 on Deron Williams just last December, with Detroit. He scored 25 or more 10 times. He scored 20 or more 20 times, shot 50% or better 14 times, threw seven or more assists 17 times. And all of this was in a limited offense that pulled him in and out of the game, with Hamilton, Prince, Sheed and Stuckey all wanting their shots as well. Do you need to be reminded that Iverson torched the Lakers for 51 in December 2007? Just over a year and a half ago? He had 25 games where he scored 30 or more that season. Memphis gave Iverson the one-year deal because there's a hefty free agent class coming up. Figured you forgot about that. What if Wade wants to team with Mayo? What if they can bring in Bosh? Giving Iverson the one-year deal allows them to have money for 2010, possibly working something out with Iverson (long-term) that won't cripple them, especially if they can entice him with a free agent all-star or superstar. How can you not see that? Why do you think teams were so afraid to offer Kidd a large contract? I don't know what Iverson you're watching, or why you think he has declined so quickly...but you're wrong.

So in the end, I think we agree for the most part...that Kobe is the better overall player (in regards to abilities, should I say?) and that Magic is the better leader. As for building a team around one or the other, that's probably for another topic. I would rather take the player that has proven to give me 30 points a night, exceptional defense...because the truth is, I just can't see Magic doing any more with a starting five including Odom, Kwame, Smush and Walton or Mihm.

By the way, welcome to the best. Nice to see you show your face.

I disagree with Kobe not being as mentally tough. 2003 is a great example of this, not to mention all the media has unloaded on him since his rookie days. I'm not removing the team leadership from the equation. I'm removing MVP's and rings...two different things. To me, leadership is not always synonymous with championships. But we can add championships, if you wish...they will be even by July 2010, anyways. However, the MVP award doesn't tell us much about the player. We saw Steve Nash get two consecutive MVP's. Great, great team player. One of the worst defenders at the point guard position, though, and just a 20 PPG scorer, and a career high of 39, I believe. By the end of his career, people will rank him up there with the top 6-7 point guards in the history of the game because of those two MVP's. When Bryant gets his fifth title, second as a leader, that will close the debate for me (if indeed we are including championships), because the last two titles Magic won, he was the clear-cut leader...but I can't say that for the first three.

Nah, out of the two duos two years ago (using 2008 because it goes with the topic). So, in 2008, what duo would more than likely make the Finals? a) Dwight Howard and Allen Iverson b) Dwight Howard and Chauncey Billups I'm putting my money on Iverson and Howard, while Iverson was dropping his 27-28 a game at 45-46% shooting, seven assists. Would anyone like to make an argument that Billups is a better primary scoring option? Yes, it most certainly does depend on the team. Billups is a better second-option scorer. Iverson is a better offensive leader. Who would do better with the Charlotte Bobcats? Iverson. A Billups-led Bobcats team would fare just about as much as his past teams, before he was teamed up with Rip, Prince, Sheed and Big Ben. It was Denver's frontcourt that won them four extra games, and put them into the WCF.

Ah, so guys, it's more like the mock off-seasons I used to run (for you old-school OTR and JBB members).

Strictly for the sake of discussion, who is more likely to get into the Finals: Dwight Howard and Allen Iverson, or... Dwight Howard and Chauncey Billups?

That's fine to say Magic has better leadership/management. I've always said that (best leader in the game, better than Jordan in that department). But all I'm simply asking is who the better overall player is. Bryant is the better offensive player, better defensive player. As far as eras go, the 80's had four truly dominant teams: Lakers, Celtics, Sixers and Pistons. Three of them are in the East. Kobe and Shaq had to plow through the likes of the Spurs, Kings and Blazers to pull off their dynasty. Granted two of them aren't among the greatest teams assembled, it was always the firs three sets of games that were the toughest for the Lakers, with an easy Finals, while it was almost smooth-sailing for Los Angeles through three (most of the time, minus Houston), then a tough Finals match-up. It may have took two HOF'ers to defeat the 2000-2002 contenders, and probably three or four to beat the likes of Bird's Celtics, but technically, that has no effect on the load carried by both Bryant and Magic. Early in his career, Magic had his 25-30 PPG center, while Kobe had his. Eventually, Magic became that scorer (not to that extent, though) while Bryant took Gasol with him on his successful quest. My point is, I can see Kobe having just as much success with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Green, Nixon and Wilkes as Magic could have with Shaq, Gasol, and Fisher...and I'm willing to bet more, by a ring or two...which is what Magic has over Bryant.

I talked to him the other day on the phone. He's been around the forums.

How many would be interested? I strongly suggest checking into it, if you like our past leagues.

So, if Kobe's titles are watered down...then can we say the same for Shaq's championships? I really need this. This will be wonderful for future debates.

Ah. When did I mention that Allen Iverson was the better defensive player? Please, anyone, let me know by quoting it on any message board I've ever posted at. In fact, go to RealGM, where I even stated in Snake's topic that Billups would more than likely teach the team to play better defense, as he's the better defensive player. Gotta start reading the posts, guys.

Stuckey is a better two-guard. I never contradicted myself, not once. There's a reason Hamilton was benched for a while. Detroit actually threw both Hamilton and Iverson aside because they had no idea where Rodney was going to fit in, and it turned out that, even though he's a better two, he's not the player Hamilton is...so you saw him play point. The result? A terrible season. Before you start telling me I'm contradicting myself, you might need to acquire a better understanding of my posts. $600 million? Haha, actually, that's laughable. There's no player in the league that has $600 million in the bank. Jordan's net worth is around $400-500 million. Nobody else in the league is even close to that. It's a fact, because he proved he wasn't effective off the bench. Doesn't matter if he did it for half a season or what, I'm not going to get caught up in "practically" and "almost" when it comes to judging Iverson's play on the court. The times he came off the bench, he was a mini-Iverson, very limited. You don't limit that kind of offensive player. Selfish, whatever you want to call him, there are other selfish players in the history of the NBA that are also great, great players. You saw one go into the HOF tonight. They will give him his contract extension, then they will have Bird Rights on him, and retain him for the duration of his career. Get your facts straight. You know what I meant. It gives them a chance to have the money for Mayo, Conley, Gasol AND Iverson. Same thing Portland has been trying to do with their young talent. I never said anyone was going to pull those guys out of the lineup. I said they weren't. Re-read the posts. And Iverson isn't going to go to a Miami team that will contain a broken-down Jermaine and Michael Beasley after the 2010 season. That would be ridiculous. But Mayo isn't going anywhere just yet, and neither will Gasol, Gay or their rookie Thabeet, so it's a nice gesture to have those guys by your side for more than one contract year. The more I look at it, the more it seems you wish Iverson had signed that small, one-year deal with the Nuggets...and it's eating you alive inside knowing he could actually prove you wrong by not only leading a team, but also winning while doing so. EDIT: I even stated clearly that they would give him the extension.

Yeah, Jordan had an amazing speech. Stockton was funny...laughed every 60 seconds. I think I almost fell asleep during Sloan's speech. Robinson thanked a lot of people, didn't really get much into a life story. Good speech as well. Stringer was pretty humble, probably worked on her speech for a while. Great night.

Yes, he'll run it and stay with it. Every league he runs, he either completes, or it goes down due to member activity, not his. I can verify this, as I've known Sky for a long time. I'll put out a board announcement late tonight.

Surprise, surprise.

Vote.

Hit dat refresh den, sucka.

I think the Spurs are playing McDyess at the four this season, which moves Duncan up to center...but I don't have a confirmation on that (seems like the most logical decision, though).

And I don't see the point of even bringing it up in the topic in the first place, especially when you include the Finals comment (which backfired). The Pacers seem to have the Lakers' number over the last couple of seasons (or so people say). That doesn't mean anything to me, either, except that the Lakers, overall, develop a sense of complacency that ruins it for them in the final six minutes of every game, it seems...and it always happened with the non-playoff teams. I was one of many who actually said it was going to destroy us in the 2009 Playoffs, and to be honest, it nearly did when Yao went out, and we figured it was a cakewalk. But Kobe, Phil and Fisher must have slapped Odom, Gasol and the other non-champions in the head, because they overcame it just in time for Game 7, and we ended up finishing 8-3 to win it all. Charlotte's victories over us mean nothing. They still need a ton of work offensively, and they still have yet to reach the playoffs, and more than likely, they will get crushed by an East powerhouse if they do, because the playoffs are do-or-die, and it's when the experienced step up and put inexperienced, weaker teams to sleep.

If it makes anyone else more of a believer, I was playing Madden 08 when it fried my first PS3 (overheated it). Sony repaired it and told me that the game had caused it.

Eh, not sure. 1) Dirk Nowitzki He's not the defensive player Garnett is, but he has been the sole leader of a Mavs franchise that has produced 8-9 consecutive 50+ win seasons. He's had his share of teammates, nonetheless, but so has Garnett. 2) Pau Gasol After the problems he caused Dwight Howard, the improved defense, and the slight problems he was giving Garnett as well, along with the fact that he plays more like a power forward than Kevin, I have to stick him here. 3) Kevin Garnett I'm still thinking about putting him #2, but it would only be for his defensive advantage. Thing is, I'm not so sure Garnett can stop Gasol, yet I'm sure Gasol can stop him, even when I watched Garnett shoot the ball a little more than he was supposed to against Pau in the 2008 Finals, and have more trouble on the glass in their last two meetings, 08-09. That would be my top three.

See, you need to stop reading other things, and listening to other people that don't know jack about the NBA. 1/30/05: LAL 101, CHA 90 3/12/05: LAL 117, CHA 116 Lakers swept them in 2005, the same half of the season the Lakers went 10-29 under Hamblen. 6-4 against the Lakers since 2005. I don't see it as them having the Lakers' number, really.

I stopped going to the gym a LONG time ago, because I'm not really big on having discussions while working out...and it seemed like every time I went, someone would try and tell me their life story. If I decided I wanted to do some curls, they would just stand there talking, and it was annoying.