Nitro

Not going to really dive into your post because you know my stance on everything, just a few small things... False, he averaged 32PPG for that series. He also shot below 39% in 9 of those 22 games, over 50% in only 5. Jordan averaged those points on remarkable efficiency, and was also setting his teammates up with more assists than the majority of Kobe's career. I'd also love to see Kobe ever average 11APG for a series like Jordan did his first trip to the Finals.

But anyway, I won't bother replying anymore. We know each others' arguements in-and-out, so it's kind of senseless. Tomorrow I'll try and find more crazy, non-Kobe related stats from MJ's career.

Well, since it has become another MJ/Kobe debate, 3.5 regular seasons as well. When MJ had that kind of help, he was giving you 32-37PPG, and multiple seasons with 6-8 assists, 6-8 rebounds and won a DPOY. His all-around game stayed significantly stronger than Kobe's when they were taking 24-27 shots per game (Kobe's defense was awful when his offensive load increased to that level). And those two post-seasons, against a team with Amare and Diaw defending the paint, Kobe could not do the things MJ did (without Pippen) against Bird's Celtics, 2 years in a row, who happened to be one of the greatest defenses of all-time. Wade torched the Celtics last post-season, averaging over 30PPG and 50%+ shooting with NO help. LeBron also averaged more points and shot 3% better than Kobe did with less offensive help...and that's just comparing Kobe to his current peers. With no hand-checking, a prime MJ WOULD get into the paint often if he wanted to against the Pistons or Celtics. Whether he finished at a 50% rate can be debated, but the fact of the matter is it is a much higher percentage shot than a fallaway jumper from 22-28ft away. Kobe routinely shoots himself in the foot with his shot selection, and has done so his entire career. Also, MJ was much stronger than Kobe, and would get about 3-7ft deeper on post-ups than Kobe can, which would further help his efficiency. And no team Kobe has ever played defended him the way the Pistons and Knicks did with MJ. Yes, there was less zoning allowed and certain defensive rules not allowed [all the time], but the physicality they used against him is way unlike anything Kobe has faced. The Jordan Rules, which the Pistons and Knicks both used against MJ, was a makeshift zone mixed with football-like physicality. Jordan still shot a % better than Kobe's best years in most of those series', and he NEVER shot like 35% which Kobe shot in that Pistons series. Regardless, the Celtics and Pistons weren't the only teams included in those Finals elimination stats. The Pacers, Sixers, Nets and Magic make up at least half of those games. Still...35% shooting for Kobe. Inexcusable. Kobe's game has had a consistent baseline his entire career in terms of efficiency, and for the most part his volume scoring/passing/etc... Even when he was in his true physical prime he was not a guy that was getting to the rim extremely often or scoring with impressive efficiency. That's no one's fault but his own, and is a huge reason why he will never be known as a better scorer than MJ. Even the last few seasons Kobe (besides when his knee was [expletive]ed up last year) still has had the athleticism to beat virtually any defender he wants off the dribble, and can finish/draw fouls at the rim. Way too often he settles. Kobe wasn't going to do it at any point in his career, especially with Gasol, which is my point. Kobe's career best for a post-season series I believe is 33PPG. He has led the Lakers in FGA's for 10 years straight (pretty much all of them well over 20 FGA's per game), and for about 7 of them he has been the undisputed #1 option. He has played in a countless number of series against all kinds of teams...and his career best is around 33PPG for a series. That's Jordan's career post-season average. Jordan eclipsed the 40PPG mark for a series 6x (maybe more), and when he did so he threw in 5-8 assists, 5-10 rebounds, 2+ steals and always over 50% shooting (a percentage Kobe has only met once or twice in his entire post-season career). In other words, no, I don't just assume he could, let alone while maintaining an all-around statline that Kobe has rarely, if ever matched.

*Sigh*...tribal band with a skull. I was 17 and went to the tattoo shop for the first time to look around, walked inside, pointed my finger and said, "I WANT THAT!!!" Ugh...

It's that time of month All that's fine...but Kobe has had 6 years now as that #1 guy, 3 of those with a crappy supporting cast to boost stats. He's never had one playoff series remotely in the same vicinity as those 6 I posted in the OP (all of which were in a 7 year period, most of them in a 5 year period, some with a 20PPG scorer in Pippen). From volume to efficiency and the combination, it just hasn't happened. In regards to my last post, your arguement would be fine if it wasn't for the massive 10% FG difference between the two (go ahead, bring up Boston and Detroit's defense, it doesn't excuse such horrible efficiency). Also, Kobe took over 20+ shots in 2 of the 3 championship seasons with Shaq, both of those seasons he actually took more FGA's than Shaq. In 2000-2001 Kobe actually accounted for a higher percentage of his team's FGA's (27%) than MJ did in 1990-1991 (26%). As for the playing through the post thing, to be fair MJ WAS the post presence on the Bulls, and Pippen also spent a significant amount of time in the post. And despite, as you always mention, that Kobe was essentially the PG of the 3-peat Lakers, MJ had to share those duties with Pippen (who averaged more assists than anyone Kobe has ever played with in the triangle, minus Payton) yet still managed more assists than Kobe with fewer TO's. I didn't really plan on or want this turning into a Kobe vs MJ thread, so silly me. But I will never, ever see the arguement for Kobe being a better player, beyond being more skilled, which to me is only a fraction of what makes a player better.

Anyone know/like Madvillain? It's the great combo of MF Doom and Madlib. I think they recently made a 2nd album together, but all I've heard is the first album, which is terrific and VERY interesting. Here's some of my favorite songs from them... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewc1hixzYPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3vsj2O9tHg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOh0NfmvU-Q

This post got me thinking about what each player has done, statistically, in Finals elimination games (i.e games in which they were facing elimination, or had the oppertunity to eliminate their opponent). So, I took 20 minutes, looked up all the game logs, crunched the numbers, and here ya go (eerily enough both played 10 games)... Michael Jordan in Finals elimination games: 10G, 32.0 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 4.7 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 3.2 TO, 45.0% FG, 32.0% 3PT, 82.0% FT Kobe Bryant in Finals elimination games: 10G, 23.5 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 2.5 TO, 35.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 87.0% FT

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/115/302904364_bf1c09bb52.jpg ^I got that tattoo, just a bit smaller on my forearm. I love it, although the amount of questions people ask me about it get crazy (to be expected). I got another tattoo, but I regret it and don't even want to talk about it...and no, it's not a penis. Just a really generic, scratch that, REALLY generic tattoo.

That was sick, perfectly executed haha.

I don't understand it for either team. Detroit is basically trading for the same amount in expiring deals, while giving up a good young player in Bynum. Meanwhile, Atlanta is giving up the 6th man of the year/scoring punch off their bench, taking in 2 guys who may or may not make the team better than it currently is, and taking in more salary (Bynum has like 3 years left) when they are in a position where they really need to be saving $. I just don't like it for either team. It seems like one of those trades that teams make just for the hell of it rather than for a reasonable purpose.

Once Odom comes back, yeah, the Lakers have the best bench.

Many of those teams also were older and went into full-fledged rebuilding mode after those superstars retired. The season after MJ retired, Toni Kukoc (very similar to Hedo Turkoglu) and Steve Kerr (one of the greatest 3pt shooter ever) joined a team that had a top 50 player all-time IN HIS PRIME in Pippen and an All-Star in Horace Grant, along with the greatest coach in NBA history. And don't act like the Bulls didn't drop off. They dropped from 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency to 14th. Their point differential dropped from +7pts to +3pts (pretty big difference). They then lost to a team in the playoffs that they beat in 6 games the season before. Also, what is lost in translation is that the Bulls were only a .500 team (33-32, fringe playoff team) in 1994-1995 3/4 of the way through the season when MJ rejoined the team. After he rejoined the team (after missing a year and a half of competitive basketball) the team finished the last 17 games 13-4. And even though they lost against the Magic, he averaged 31/7/4/3 on 48% shooting that series, which statistically was as good/better as either of Kobe's playoff losses against a much softer Suns defense. But, prove to me why Kobe is the better basketball player. Your entire arguement (one with many holes in it) is why MJ shouldn't be the GOAT. Prove to me why Kobe should be the GOAT, and is more deserving than MJ.

Did you read the line right after I proposed those two questions? I said those two statements are weak arguements, exactly like the ones ECN said regarding MJ.

Tell me how Kobe's done without Fisher (the answer is never out of the first round). Tell me how Shaq did when he replaced Kobe with Wade (the answer is a championship) I don't believe either of the above is a strong arguement as both statements have holes in them, just like what you said does. Also, Kobe has played in more career post-season games than MJ I believe at this point. My challenge to you...find me ONE SERIES Kobe has had that compares to or eclipes any of the ones I posted from MJ. It won't happen, because Kobe has never had been that dominant of a post-season performer.

Eh, I still think it is a factor. At the end of games, give me the guy who's a better and more efficient scorer (with more range), and more efficient ballhandler/playmaker. My point was that you were labelling Paul as strictly a high PnR player, and over the last 3 seasons he has done quite well against one of the greatest PnR defenses in NBA history. Williams has also had, generally, much better rebounders than Paul has, affording him that slight luxory. However, I'd argue that Paul's rebounding in some ways makes the Hornets' fastbreak more dangerous than the Jazz's. Like Magic and more recently Kidd and Rondo, PG's that can hit the boards are a nightmare to defend on the fastbreak. Paul's 2009 post-season consisted of one series, which was better than Williams' series last year against the Lakers. But, we are splitting hairs. I do feel that what Paul did in that 2008 post-season was better than anything Williams is capable of from an individual standpoint...he slaughtered the Mavs and Spurs. I really don't think Williams is as capable of putting a team on his back and dominating ballgames like Paul is. Boozer averaged 18/9 for the Jazz in 2004-2005 as a 3rd year player, they year before Williams was drafted. That same year, per 36min, Okur put up roughly the same numbers he did with Williams. Korver averaged 14PPG on 43% shooting his last season in Philly, and has kicked off this season shooting 59% from 3 with Derrick Rose setting him up. As you said, Brewer is injured, and Mathews is only in his second season, so let's hold off judgements there. And all Al Jefferson's failures in carrying the Wolves or Celtics mean is that he isn't a legit 1st option. Again, though, everything you said has more to do with coaching and supporting cast as it does the superstar. To imply that Paul can't be extremely effective in a more versatile, well-balanced offense is kind of ridiculous when there isn't anything ro really support that notion. That is why I am looking at this debate from a much more raw, individual manner.

Since I haven't rode Jordan's dick in a few months, I thought I'd share these jaw-dropping stats with ya'll.... Jordan vs. Boston, 1986 Playoffs - 43.7 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.7 apg 2.3 spg 1.3 bpg 51% FG Jordan vs. Cavs, 1988 Playoffs - 45.2 ppg 5.4 rpg 4.8 apg 2+ spg 1+ bpg 56% FG Jordan vs. Cavs, 1989 Playoffs - 40.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 8.2 apg 2+ spg 1 bpg 53% FG Jordan vs. Philly, 1990 Playoffs - 43.0 ppg 6.6 rpg 7.4 apg 3 spg 1+ bpg 55+% FG Jordan vs. Miami, 1992 Playoffs - 45.0 ppg 9.7 rpg 6.7 apg 3 spg1 bpg 61% FG Jordan vs. Phoenix, 1993 NBA Finals - 41.0 ppg 8.5 rpg 6.3 apg 2 spg 1 bpg 51% FG G.O.A.T

Durant's struggles do hurt the team a bit, but it's not the source of their struggles. For what he hasn't been doing on the offensive end, Westbrook and Green's great play to kick off the season have. The source of the team's struggles have been defensively. Last season they were 9th in Drtg, this year 27th. Last year they were giving up 98PPG on 45% shooting...this year 106PPG on 49% shooting. And it isn't like their pace has increased, it has stayed almost exactly the same, which means their defense has gotten a LOT worse. They simply aren't playing with the same fire on that end of the floor, and until they get back down to the smothering defense they had last season, they will be a massive disappointment. To be fair, I expected them to have this kind of start and season. Don't get me wrong, they will get better, but won't be an elite WC team. They don't have a ton of talent outside of Durant/Westbrook, and last season they really maxed out what they had and played with such a high energy. This season they will have a very hard time matching that energy they had last season. Durant will also have a very hard time matching the insane efficiency he had last season as every single team has studied his tape and will be keyed in on him more than ever.

I don't know how today's games affected the stats, but through yesterday Nash was averaging .2 TO's less than Wall, and Williams was averaging 1.6 less TO's than Wall.

Another thing to consider when looking at scoring volume and efficiency is pace and what the rest of the league was doing. Back when Magic was playing, teams were routinely scoring 115-120PPG and guards were routinely shooting 50%+ from the field because of the pace. Not to mention the HoF finishers and coach Magic had. For Paul to score at such volume and efficiency as he does, average as many assists with such low TO's, average as many boards for his size, rack up as many steals...it's all insanely impressive. From a pure statistical standpoint (I already gave my real analysis in my first post), Paul's 08-09 season IS in the same ballpark as most of Magic's best seasons. I won't say better, or as good, but what Paul did that season statistically is more impressive than any Kidd, Nash, Isiah, or many other of the elite PG's have ever had. Only guys in the same ballpark, statistically, are Magic, Stockton and the Big O. Because he didn't get it done on the defensive end. Offensively, what he's done on the Suns the last 5 years is in the same ballpark as Magic. Actually, very similar situations. Both were in situations where they had a lot of offensive talent and were in offensive minded systems. Both ran the very best offenses of their era's, and did things that other PG's really never have. Defensively and on the boards is where the big differences are, besides accoldades.

Touche lol. Still, when Paul is shooting 8-10% better from the FT linein 08-09 than Magic those 2 seasons, it's a big factor.

That's crazy. First off, it also includes 3pt shooting, where CP3 for the last 5 seasons has been anywhere between 36-41% (40%+ the last 2). Secondly, FT shooting is very important, and for guys that get to the line 6-8x per game like Paul/Magic do/did, it is certainly a factor. To be fair, though, for their career's Paul and Magic have identical FT shooting percentages, but Paul's FT shooting was much better in 08-09 than the two seasons you brought up for Magic.

To play devil's advocate (because I believe Magic was a better player than CP3), I replaced Magic's FG% with TS% (a more encompassing stat for scoring efficiency), included TO's, and here is CP3's 2008-2009 statline... 22.8PPG on 59.9% TS, 5.5 RPG, 11.0 APG, 2.8 SPG, 3.0 TO's

That's a very, very flawed arguement. Williams has played in far many more playoff games than Paul, so to use one example is kind of silly. In the regular season Paul's clutch stats (according to 82games.com) have been FAR better than Williams each of the last 3 seasons, and through 2009 he had 2 more GW shots on 3% better shooting in those situations, and the same amount of assists and turnovers in those situations. Paul can also do it off dribble penetration extremely well, better than Williams. And without a doubt Paul is a better PnR player than Williams, which is a vital play for any offense. As for teams stopping Paul's bread and butter PnR play, let's look at what he's done against arguably the best PnR defense of the last decade, the Boston Celtics. Last season, in 1 game, Paul averaged 22/8/3 on 69% shooting against them. In 08-09, in 2 games, he averaged 17/10/4 on 36% shooting. In 07-08, in 2 games, he averaged 21/9/5 on 50% shooting against them. So, in the last 3 seasons, that's 19.6PPG/9.1APG (11 TO's through 5 games, so only 2.5 TO's per game) on 47.0% shooting (about Williams' usual averages) against a team tailor-made to stop Paul's greatest offensive strength. Not too shabby. What about the way Derek Fisher's physicality completely threw off Williams' game last post-season, forcing him into sub-40% shooting for the series and not a single game of double digit assists? And Williams has never had a post-season as good as Paul's 2008 campaign, where he averaged 24/11/5 with less than 2 TO's per game, and where he pushed the defending champs to 7 games with a less talented supporting cast than Williams has routinely had. Bingo. Until Paul is given teammates that aren't best suited to have Paul create their offense, I think it's foolish to use what the Jazz as a team (who have been much more talented) have done over what the Hornets have done. But in strict head-to-head analysis, Paul can score more on better efficiency from the field/3pt/FT line, rack up more assists with less turnovers, rebounds better, is at least very close to (at worst) as good a defender as Williams, is IMO a better clutch player and on-court floor general. I just don't see the arguement for Williams being better.

Give me a break. That's like saying if you HAVE to debate who is better between Kobe and LeBron, then there's no way Kobe is better than Jordan.