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Raptors Tanking/Draft Anticipation


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And exactly how many times have you even watched Barnes and Irving play?

 

Hell, two weeks ago you said that the Raptors need Irving. :lol:

 

Because of how many good point guards there are in the league, it makes landing Irving so important for the Raptors. Night in and night out you are going to go up against all-star caliber guards in the NBA (the Raptors have 3 of them in their own division in Williams, Rondo and Billups and a potential all-star in Holiday). That is 16 games a year against some serious competition at the point guard spot. This is just inter-division competition and not including guys like Rose and Wall or Western point guards like Westbrook, Paul and Nash.

 

That is why it is so important to go land a guy like Irving. Not only is he the clear cut number one in this draft, but he fills a gaping hole for the Raptors (Barnes does that too, but Irving is the better prospect).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy with Barnes, but Irving is definitely the better prospect between the two.

 

 

As for top prospects in March Madness, Brandon Knight was held pointless for the first 39:58 but ended up hitting the game winning layup with 2 seconds left to give UK the win over Princeton. Terrence Jones was invisible by the sounds of it as well.

I've seen them on the highlights and youtube so I think those two things are good enough to judge talent.

 

I did want Irving two weeks ago but that was two weeks ago. Now I want Barnes because Barnes will be the better fit for the Raptors in the short term and long term. Raptors just don't need a point guard right now.

 

Thank you for making my point BFT. Their is so many good point guards in the league that you can find one in each draft, but you won't find Harrison Barnes in each draft, He has potential to become a superstar. I rather have superstar small forward than superstar point guard.

 

Brandon Knight played like shit, He's gonna drop from the lottery. I wasn't really impress with Terrence Jones rebounding as he couldn't hold on to the ball when he rebounded. Overall not good games from two stars from Kentucky.

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I've seen them on the highlights and youtube so I think those two things are good enough to judge talent.

 

I did want Irving two weeks ago but that was two weeks ago. Now I want Barnes because Barnes will be the better fit for the Raptors in the short term and long term. Raptors just don't need a point guard right now.

 

Thank you for making my point BFT. Their is so many good point guards in the league that you can find one in each draft, but you won't find Harrison Barnes in each draft, He has potential to become a superstar. I rather have superstar small forward than superstar point guard.

 

Brandon Knight played like shit, He's gonna drop from the lottery. I wasn't really impress with Terrence Jones rebounding as he couldn't hold on to the ball when he rebounded. Overall not good games from two stars from Kentucky.

 

Youtube videos and highlights can make anybody look like a superstar. Sure, the odd mix here and there can give you a nice starting point for reference, but there is absolutely no subsitute for watching them play an actual game. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could go and pull up a mix of Kwame Brown that makes him look like he should be an All-Star caliber center, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a scrub.

 

Why don't the Raptors need a point guard right now? Because they have a 29 year old, defensive liability, scared to shoot and take any risks Jose Calderon? The league is transitioning from big men to explosive point guards and Calderon is about the furthest thing from an explosive point guard that you will find in the NBA. When you are constantly overmatched at the point of attack, like the Raptors are in 90% of the games that they play, it puts so much pressure on the rest of the team. With the Raptors not having anybody on the roster who can create their shot off of the bounce, it makes it even more crucial to find that dynamic point guard.

 

Lastly, the system that they run is completely point guard dominant and Colangelo teams are always that way. Whether it was Kidd, Marbury, Nash, Ford or Calderon, point guards on Bryan Colangelo teams are arguably the most important player on the floor. The Raptors system is garbage without a great point guard and Irving has that potential.

 

Look, I would have no problem with agreeing with you about taking Barnes over Irving if they were comparable prospects, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't. Irving is simply the better prospect between the two of them and since both fill a huge need for the team, you go with the better prospect.

 

And not, potential franchise point guards don't come around in any draft. In fact, next years draft has a lot more small forwards than point guards. Myck Kabongo is the only point guard who is expected to go in the top 10 (Austin Rivers is not a point guard, and I don't think Bradley Beal is one either), yet there are 5 small fowards predicted to go in the top 15 of the draft, including 2 players (Michael Gilchrist and Quincy Miller) who have a legitimate shot at going number 1. Next years draft is chalk full of small forwards and completely thin when it comes to point guards, so the Raptors would be much better off walking away with Irving in this draft and filling their small forward need next year than getting Barnes this year and hoping that they are able to draft the one or two legit point guards in the draft next year.

 

Really though, this is all semantics at this point. Like I said, I've got no problems with you thinking that Barnes is a better prospect even though I disagree with it. I would certainly not be upset if they walked away with Barnes this season. Lets just agree to disagree on this fact because it is still way too early to tell. Hell, both of these two may not even declare for the draft this year.

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Youtube videos and highlights can make anybody look like a superstar. Sure, the odd mix here and there can give you a nice starting point for reference, but there is absolutely no subsitute for watching them play an actual game. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could go and pull up a mix of Kwame Brown that makes him look like he should be an All-Star caliber center, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a scrub.

 

Why don't the Raptors need a point guard right now? Because they have a 29 year old, defensive liability, scared to shoot and take any risks Jose Calderon? The league is transitioning from big men to explosive point guards and Calderon is about the furthest thing from an explosive point guard that you will find in the NBA. When you are constantly overmatched at the point of attack, like the Raptors are in 90% of the games that they play, it puts so much pressure on the rest of the team. With the Raptors not having anybody on the roster who can create their shot off of the bounce, it makes it even more crucial to find that dynamic point guard.

 

Lastly, the system that they run is completely point guard dominant and Colangelo teams are always that way. Whether it was Kidd, Marbury, Nash, Ford or Calderon, point guards on Bryan Colangelo teams are arguably the most important player on the floor. The Raptors system is garbage without a great point guard and Irving has that potential.

 

Look, I would have no problem with agreeing with you about taking Barnes over Irving if they were comparable prospects, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't. Irving is simply the better prospect between the two of them and since both fill a huge need for the team, you go with the better prospect.

 

And not, potential franchise point guards don't come around in any draft. In fact, next years draft has a lot more small forwards than point guards. Myck Kabongo is the only point guard who is expected to go in the top 10 (Austin Rivers is not a point guard, and I don't think Bradley Beal is one either), yet there are 5 small fowards predicted to go in the top 15 of the draft, including 2 players (Michael Gilchrist and Quincy Miller) who have a legitimate shot at going number 1. Next years draft is chalk full of small forwards and completely thin when it comes to point guards, so the Raptors would be much better off walking away with Irving in this draft and filling their small forward need next year than getting Barnes this year and hoping that they are able to draft the one or two legit point guards in the draft next year.

 

Really though, this is all semantics at this point. Like I said, I've got no problems with you thinking that Barnes is a better prospect even though I disagree with it. I would certainly not be upset if they walked away with Barnes this season. Lets just agree to disagree on this fact because it is still way too early to tell. Hell, both of these two may not even declare for the draft this year.

Alright, I guess Rapshould take Irving.

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Some stats tonight from some of the more highly touted draft prospects.

 

Kyrie Irving:

 

14 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals on 4-8 shooting in 20 minutes

 

Derrick Williams:

 

22 points, 10 rebounds, 1 block (game saving one, I believe) on 6-11 shooting and 9-9 free throws in 36 minutes

 

Jared Sullinger:

 

11 points, 9 rebounds, 3 steals on 5-7 shooting in 28 minutes

 

Harrison Barnes:

 

24 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals on 9-19 shooting (2-10 from three) in 35 minutes

 

John Henson

 

28 points, 11 rebounds, 6 blocks on 10-16 shooting and 8-10 free throws in 28 minutes

Edited by Built Ford Tough
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Some stats tonight from some of the more highly touted draft prospects.

 

Kyrie Irving:

 

14 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals on 4-8 shooting in 20 minutes

 

Derrick Williams:

 

22 points, 10 rebounds, 1 block (game saving one, I believe) on 6-11 shooting and 9-9 free throws in 36 minutes

 

Jared Sullinger:

 

11 points, 9 rebounds, 3 steals on 5-7 shooting in 28 minutes

 

Harrison Barnes:

 

24 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals on 9-19 shooting (2-10 from three) in 35 minutes

 

John Henson

 

28 points, 11 rebounds, 6 blocks on 10-16 shooting and 8-10 free throws in 28 minutes

Look at Barnes numbers, this is why the Rapshould take him.

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Irving is the easy answer for Toronto if they get the top pick. If not, then I really like Derrick Williams or Enes Kanter for you guys. Kanter is going to be a star IMO.

I don't want Derrick Williams on my team. He's going to be the new Mike Beasley, not really saying Beasley is bad but he ain't that great. Kanter would be good and move Bargs to PF. That would be a great front court.

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I don't want Derrick Williams on my team. He's going to be the new Mike Beasley, not really saying Beasley is bad but he ain't that great. Kanter would be good and move Bargs to PF. That would be a great front court.

 

Williams is like the anti-Beasley. Only thing holding Michael Beasley back is Michael Beasley.

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Look at Barnes numbers, this is why the Rapshould take him.

 

They are impressive numbers, but context has to be taken into consideration. They played a weak team, Barnes was the third best Tar Hell on the floor (Zeller had 32 points and I already posted Henson's numbers) and Barnes, as the Heels small forward, was taller than any player on the other team.

 

The numbers were nice, but an above average game against the 15 seed is hardly anything to get excited about (considering he was 2-10 from three and had 4 turnovers). Lets see him continue to put up these kinds of games as the tournament goes on and he plays some tougher competition.

 

Irving is the easy answer for Toronto if they get the top pick. If not, then I really like Derrick Williams or Enes Kanter for you guys. Kanter is going to be a star IMO.

 

No thanks on Williams and I wouldn't be opposed to Kanter, assuming Barnes and Irving are gone. I'd rather take a chance on Valanciunas over Kanter, but I wouldn't hate the pick. I'm just a bit worried about Kanter being able to adjust to the next level as he would be undersized at center (if the reports of him being 6'10 are true) and he seems a little too earth bound for my liking. I just like Valanciunas' length, the fact that he is only 18 or whatever, something like 90% of his shots are at the rim where he has around 75 TS%, a 90% free throw shooter and has a ridiculous rebound rate.

 

He has a high chance of being a bust, I don't deny that, but I think he has one of the higher upsides in this draft. In a weak draft, you might as well swing for the fences when you are picking 5th/6th like the Raptors are likely to.

 

Out of curiousity, why do you think Williams would be a good pick for the Raptors? I admit to not having seen him much, but when I have watched him I never came away thinking that he could be a full time small forward in the NBA and I don't really think he is a better prospect than Ed Davis. I'm usually strongly in favor of picking the BPA, but in a draft like this I honestly think that the Raptors should trade down if they are put into a position where the BPA is clearly a power forward, such as Sullinger or Williams. That is the one position that they really don't need with Bargnani, Davis and Johnson already on the team.

 

 

Williams is like the anti-Beasley. Only thing holding Michael Beasley back is Michael Beasley.

 

Attitude and personality wise, I agree that they are nothing alike.

 

I can see the comparision between their games, though. Obviously Williams isn't as talented as Beasley is, but I do see some similairities between the two.

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Williams shot is greatly underrated, especially from the perimeter. He's shooting like 60% from 3 this year having taken like 60 threes I think. His defense is also very good. I think he's a safe pick who will do a lot of things well for you guys opposite DeRozan. He's also a terrific rebounder for his size and unlike Michael, he isn't scared to be physical.

Edited by Charlie Sheen
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Williams shot is greatly underrated, especially from the perimeter. He's shooting like 60% from 3 this year having taken like 60 threes I think. His defense is also very good. I think he's a safe pick who will do a lot of things well for you guys opposite DeRozan. He's also a terrific rebounder for his size and unlike Michael, he isn't scared to be physical.

 

His shot is nice, I don't deny that, but I don't see how he can play the 3 in the NBA. He doesn't have very good handles and he definitely won't have the lateral quicks to guard opposing small forwards.

 

Again, you probbaly know more about his game than I do because I admit to only seeing maybe 2 or 3 games of his all season long. He just doesn't strike me as the type of guy who can play the 3 at the next level and I'd prefer if the Raptors didn't come out of this draft with another power forward.

 

I don't know, I wouldn't be opposed to drafting him, but that would only be if all three of Irving, Barnes and Valanciunas are off of the board already. He is in that group along with Kanter, Walker, Jones and Jones where I wouldn't be opposed to drafting him, but isn't who I would ideally want to walk away from this draft with.

 

EDIT:

 

Brandon Knight had a nice bounce back game today against West Virgina. He had 30 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists on 9-20 shooting and 9-10 from the line.

 

He still isn't a point guard, though, and I don't really ever see him developing into a legitimate point guard in the future. He screams Gilbert Arenas (in terms of being a scoring 1) to me.

 

Terrence Jones had 12/10/3 as well. I have been less than impressed with what I have seen from him so far in the tournament. He doesn't look all that great to me.

Edited by Built Ford Tough
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Do the Raptors need Harrison Barnes when they have James Johnson?

 

You don't not draft a guy because of James Johnson.

 

He (JJ) has had some solid moments from what I have seen this season, but he is the kind of guy who is much better served as a 8th-9th man off of the bench. He isn't a starting caliber player at this level, so I wouldn't pass on a guy just because you already have him on the roster.

 

The same thing can be said about Kleiza.

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You don't not draft a guy because of James Johnson.

 

He (JJ) has had some solid moments from what I have seen this season, but he is the kind of guy who is much better served as a 8th-9th man off of the bench. He isn't a starting caliber player at this level, so I wouldn't pass on a guy just because you already have him on the roster.

 

The same thing can be said about Kleiza.

I hate Klieza, he's a bum and all he can do is shoot. He couldn't even do that well, GET HIM OUT!

 

Raptors are probably going to take Barnes. Raps also need legit C and move Ed Davis to PF and get rid of Amir Johnson.

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I hate Klieza, he's a bum and all he can do is shoot. He couldn't even do that well, GET HIM OUT!

 

Raptors are probably going to take Barnes. Raps also need legit C and move Ed Davis to PF and get rid of Amir Johnson.

 

Kleiza is fine if he is an 8th man off the bench like he was in Denver. When you put him in the starting lineup and expect him to be one of your offensive leaders, then you are in trouble, which the Raptors found out first hand this season.

 

I'll give him another shot, though. He is a better player than he showed this season and the constant injury problems that he had to deal with (his knee was bugging him all season long before finally having the surgery, as well as the achillies injury he suffered early in the year) this season didn't help matters at all.

 

Why are you so set on getting rid of Johnson, though? I agree that they need a legit center because neither Davis, Bargnani or Johnson are capable of playing it, but Johnson is the ideal big man off of the bench. Every championship team has an Amir type of player off of the bench, and considering he is locked up long term into what is a fairly reasonable contract, I don't understand why you feel that the Raptors need to so desperately move him.

 

As far as Barnes, at the rate the Raptors are going and how well he is playing down the stretch, they are going to be lucky if they even have the opportunity to draft Barnes. If he continues his solid play and impresses in workouts, there is a legit chance that he will go in the top 2, maybe even first overall depending on who wins the draft lottery. I doubt he sticks around past the top 4, and with the Raptors having a better chance of picking 6th than moving into the top 3, I don't think they have that great of a shot at being able to draft him.

 

Of course, this is assuming Barnes even enters the draft in the first place (which I think he will, but some don't).

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Kleiza is fine if he is an 8th man off the bench like he was in Denver. When you put him in the starting lineup and expect him to be one of your offensive leaders, then you are in trouble, which the Raptors found out first hand this season.

 

I'll give him another shot, though. He is a better player than he showed this season and the constant injury problems that he had to deal with (his knee was bugging him all season long before finally having the surgery, as well as the achillies injury he suffered early in the year) this season didn't help matters at all.

 

Why are you so set on getting rid of Johnson, though? I agree that they need a legit center because neither Davis, Bargnani or Johnson are capable of playing it, but Johnson is the ideal big man off of the bench. Every championship team has an Amir type of player off of the bench, and considering he is locked up long term into what is a fairly reasonable contract, I don't understand why you feel that the Raptors need to so desperately move him.

 

As far as Barnes, at the rate the Raptors are going and how well he is playing down the stretch, they are going to be lucky if they even have the opportunity to draft Barnes. If he continues his solid play and impresses in workouts, there is a legit chance that he will go in the top 2, maybe even first overall depending on who wins the draft lottery. I doubt he sticks around past the top 4, and with the Raptors having a better chance of picking 6th than moving into the top 3, I don't think they have that great of a shot at being able to draft him.

 

Of course, this is assuming Barnes even enters the draft in the first place (which I think he will, but some don't).

Amir has maxed out his potential, Ed Davis has more potential than him. Bargs will play way better as PF. Reggie Evans is valuable to this team. You can't have four power fowards.

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Brandon Knight had a nice bounce back game today against West Virgina. He had 30 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists on 9-20 shooting and 9-10 from the line.

 

He still isn't a point guard, though, and I don't really ever see him developing into a legitimate point guard in the future. He screams Gilbert Arenas (in terms of being a scoring 1) to me.

 

Problem with Brandon is that he has all those tools to be a dominant point guard both scoring and passing-wise but no one has ever taken the time to coach him as a PG. I've watched him since he was a sophomore at Pine Crest and he's always been relied upon to be his teams source of offense. His teammates weren't always great players so against good teams he had to score 30 to 40 for them to win. The skills are there but he's just never been coached up to be a true point guard.

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Problem with Brandon is that he has all those tools to be a dominant point guard both scoring and passing-wise but no one has ever taken the time to coach him as a PG. I've watched him since he was a sophomore at Pine Crest and he's always been relied upon to be his teams source of offense. His teammates weren't always great players so against good teams he had to score 30 to 40 for them to win. The skills are there but he's just never been coached up to be a true point guard.

 

He doesn't exactly strike me as having the best playmaking instincts, though. Even if he hasn't been groomed to be a "pure" point guard, you would still see some natural playmaking instincts, and I don't see that in Knight.

 

Don't get me wrong, he is very talented and I honestly think that he will work his way into the lottery, perhaps top 10, maybe even top 5 (although I think that is a stretch) simply because he has the kind of size, talent and intrigue (consensous #1 high school player for basically every year until the final half of his senior year, leading the nation in freshman scoring, etc...) that he has.

 

He reminds me of OJ Mayo, really. Both were considered future superstars as early as their first year of high school due to their size at the point guard spot, neither one of them really developed the point guard instincts and as a result by the time their senior year rolled around they were getting passed by a bit by other guards (Rose and Gordon in Mayo's case, Irving and arguably Selby in Knight's case). Both had solid freshman seasons for their respective teams, but again, neither one of them really showed the abilitiy to be a point guard at the next level and their stock dropped because of that, although Knight's has fallen more than Mayo.

 

I actually wouldn't mind him on the Raptors as he is definitely a talented player, but I just question whether or not he will be able to run a team effectively at the next level, or if he is going to be similar to Jerryd Bayless or OJ Mayo.

 

Barnes is apperantly considering coming back to UNC for another year. Wah!

 

I still say he declares. I know he is supposed to be real big on education and loves college, but I just don't see the guy passing up the opportunity to be picked in the top 5 of the NBA draft, especially considering how going back to college could make him drop out of the lottery all together with how much deeper next years draft is projected to be.

 

Also, its not like he is going to come out and say that he is entering the draft in the middle of a tournament run. He is much smarter than that.

 

It wouldn't shock me if he did stay, but I still say he enters the draft.

Edited by Built Ford Tough
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It really seems like you don't know what you want.

 

:lol:

 

Pretty much.

 

On the topic of Brandon Knight, David Thorpe is extremely high on him. He tweeted this after the first or second game of the tournament:

 

I think, by June, whomever is drafting in the top 3 will consider Brandon Knight. I think he can go number 1.

 

He's not as explosive an athlete as D Rose, but he's a better scorer, shooter, and passer at that age. Rose has higher upside, not by a lot.

 

Obviously I don't agree with the thought of him going number one, but like I said earlier, I think he is probably back in the top 10 as of now and if he has great workouts, I can see him jumping into the top 5, depending on how the draft plays out.

 

John Givony also has that extensive prospect profile on Harrison Barnes that I mentioned a little while back up on DX. It is a little bit older as it was posted on March 16th, so before the tournament began, but I haven't checked DX in a while so I just saw it last night.

 

It is complete with videos and everything.

 

Here is a bit of it, and the rest is at the link that follows:

 

Harrison Barnes' season came full circle in the ACC tournament, with a record breaking 40-point outing in an overtime win over Clemson.

 

Most people had left him for dead after starting the season shooting 70/189 (37%) from the field through North Carolina first 17 games, labeling him as just another overhyped freshman.

 

Barnes handled the criticism with remarkable maturity.

 

"It doesn't bother me at all because up until this part of my career, I've never had any adversity in basketball," Barnes said in an interview with The Associated Press. "My career has just been straight up. I always played, I always got better. ... So it's just been a good test for me to grow as a basketball player and grow as a person. And I feel like had I not had this adversity, I probably wouldn't become later the player I will."

 

"There's obviously a lot of basketball left in my career regardless of this year," he said. "Regardless of how this season happens, the world is not going to end. The sun will come out and life will go on. So it's one of those things you just have to look at and not just ask 'Woe is me' or wish this wasn't happening, but to understand why it's happening, to learn from it and get better as a player."

 

Since North Carolina head coach Roy Williams decided to anoint fellow freshman Kendall Marshall as the team's starting point guard, following a 20-point loss to Georgia Tech, Barnes' (and UNC's) season moved in a different direction.

 

He's hit a number of clutch shots (see video below) and has helped his team win 14 of their last 16 games leading up to the NCAA tournament. Over that span, Barnes has made 108 of his 223 field goal attempts, good for 46%, with the biggest change coming in his percentages beyond the arc (20/65 [31%] pre-Marshall starting, and 36/97 [37%] since).

 

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Draft-Prospect-of-the-Week-Harrison-Barnes-3648/

 

 

It is a great read and the video breaking down some game footage is a nice touch (but who needs those when you have Youtube highlights. :P ). If anybody has a few extra minutes, I definitely suggest taking a look at this. It gives nice insight to his game, as Givony always does.

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