Owner Real Deal Posted February 22, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Cutler... But you only care what that one time all star mark jackson says? Ok good for you. I made it clear that I didn't care what ANYONE said. I posted it once, and now I'm posting it again. I form my opinions based on what I know, not what someone thinks they know. [some stuff about zone being played in here]Yeah, again, I stated that zone WAS played by teams in the 80s and 90s, but they had to commit to doubles, and it wasn't a strict zone. You show me an example from YouTube? Do you know how many games there were, how many possessions you've skipped over, in the 80s and 90s? I don't care about the quotes from other players. You take your time criticizing the last decade's defensive teams, but you have nothing. Those teams held their opponents to a worse FG% than ANY other teams in NBA history, and only 1/11 came from Jordan's era. Players' PPG means nothing. The league changed because of those that were drafted. The 2003-04 draft contained three dominant scorers, and one all-star scorer. The cap increased, and teams could afford to shed salary to add a big-time scorer to their roster, even if it meant having him all by himself (ala McGrady in Orlando). Didn't make it easier. FG% will tell you that. Players were smarter, and that explains the crazy decrease in FG%? Haha...well, okay. That's your explanation, because you don't have a legitimate reason. The jump is too steep to support your theory, and players are now stronger and more athletic, sorry. There are 3-4 reasons for it. Rodman was primarily a post defender. Alvin actually defended the point most of the time. Jordan wasn't playing when Moncrief won. It's all still irrelevant. Your numbers were wrong even if you add Moncrief. I'm not the one saying mj would score 100 points, the laker shooting coach said that, lol. But no doubt in my mind mj could possibly score 100 in a game against todays defenses and rules.So, yeah, you are saying it... Anyway, I'm done talking about it with you. You dismiss everything by making up numbers, or bringing quotes into it, so there's no point in me going any further with it. We know you're obsessed with MJ. This is the most NBA posting you've ever done. But, it's all stuff that you haven't seen in your lifetime, and stats that are easily negated by the way teams and players played. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerrickRose1 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Jordan obviously.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reno Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Cutler... I made it clear that I didn't care what ANYONE said. I posted it once, and now I'm posting it again. I form my opinions based on what I know, not what someone thinks they know. Yeah, again, I stated that zone WAS played by teams in the 80s and 90s, but they had to commit to doubles, and it wasn't a strict zone. You show me an example from YouTube? Do you know how many games there were, how many possessions you've skipped over, in the 80s and 90s? I don't care about the quotes from other players. You take your time criticizing the last decade's defensive teams, but you have nothing. Those teams held their opponents to a worse FG% than ANY other teams in NBA history, and only 1/11 came from Jordan's era. Players' PPG means nothing. The league changed because of those that were drafted. The 2003-04 draft contained three dominant scorers, and one all-star scorer. The cap increased, and teams could afford to shed salary to add a big-time scorer to their roster, even if it meant having him all by himself (ala McGrady in Orlando). Didn't make it easier. FG% will tell you that. Players were smarter, and that explains the crazy decrease in FG%? Haha...well, okay. That's your explanation, because you don't have a legitimate reason. The jump is too steep to support your theory, and players are now stronger and more athletic, sorry. There are 3-4 reasons for it. Rodman was primarily a post defender. Alvin actually defended the point most of the time. Jordan wasn't playing when Moncrief won. It's all still irrelevant. Your numbers were wrong even if you add Moncrief. So, yeah, you are saying it... Anyway, I'm done talking about it with you. You dismiss everything by making up numbers, or bringing quotes into it, so there's no point in me going any further with it. We know you're obsessed with MJ. This is the most NBA posting you've ever done. But, it's all stuff that you haven't seen in your lifetime, and stats that are easily negated by the way teams and players played. Sorry. Fair enough, anyway just had some fun with that website you previously linked, another factor to the decrease in fg% would be the amount of shots players have been taking. For instance, compared from 84-98 theres only been 15 times players averaged over 19fga per season, compared to the 29 from 99-2011. . Another factor to decrease % is the amount of 3 pointers players now take, in jordans era you had only 14 players who averaged over 5 3 pointers attempt per game, compared to 27 that we see now. 13 players averaged between 4.0-4.9 3 pointers per game in jordans era, compared to 27 players from todays game. Heres an article ive read that a person posted on the scoring difference of 3 pointers between kobe and mj. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/562044-closing-the-case-why-michael-jordan-was-a-better-shooter-than-kobe-bryant Here is some interesting observations of 3 pointers attempted/madeJordan: 581-1178 (.327)Bryant: 1350-3978 (.339)Obviously, kobe had a lot more attempts, and a lot more completions, with still a slightly higher 3p%, pretty impressive. That said, jordans career average at 3 pointers was 1.7 per game, which in many of the seasons he played, was slightly above league average at the time. If you compare jordans 3% from the two seasons when the 3 point line was normal, and jordan averaged over 3 per game, which shows he was trying, his 3% was .364% If you wanted to count kobes 7 seasons in which he averaged over 4 3 pointers per game, his career average would be .351%. Obviously, kobe had more seasons, so his % will go up and down from time to time, however, lets say you wanted to take kobes 2 best 3 point seasons in comparison, it would be .370, or 3 best seasons with over 4 average per game would also be .364%. Point I'm trying to make, the concept that kobe bryant is a much better 3 point shooter than mj, IMO, is false. I would say they are both equally as good, if you put a young mj in the 99 season, I'm sure his 3 point stats would be just as impressive, if not more. NBA League Averages for 3 pointers Year 3PM-A/G 3PT% '80-81 0.5 -- 2.0 .245 '93-94 3.3 -- 9.9 .333 '94-95* 5.5 -- 15.3 .359 '96-97 6.0 -- 16.8 .360 '97-98^ 4.4 -- 12.4 .355 '00-01 4.8 -- 13.7 .354 '01-02 5.3 -- 14.7 .354 Sooo... this kinda relates to what I was saying earlier about the different mindset/skill sets players from the 80s/90s to today’s. on where a player will shoot the ball, and how he will score. But... I suppose a more accurate way to determine how current players fg% would stand, would to use an adjusted fg percentage %. Adj FG%= (Total FG+0.5*3ptFG)/Total FGA Which, incase my math is wrong, kobe byrants adjusted fg% would be .488% for his career. And heres another glorious role of fact sheets on how effective players can score the ball, from the previous season. 09-10 season " Kobe Bryant scored 416 points with layups and dunksKobe Bryant scored 572 points from inside of 10 feetKobe Bryant scored 862 points from inside of 15 feetKobe Bryant scored 439 points from the free throw lineKobe Bryant scored 669 points from 15 feet and outSo 1,301 of Kobe Bryant's points came inside of 15 feet or the free throw line, and only 669 of Kobe Bryant's points came from 15 feet and out.So 66% of Kobe Bryant's points came from inside of 15 feet and the free throw line." 'Dwyane Wade scored 762 points with layups and dunksDwyane Wade scored 894 points from inside of 10 feetDwyane Wade scored 996 points from inside of 15 feetDwyane Wade scored 534 points from the free throw lineDwyane Wade scored 515 points from 15 feet and outSo 1,530 of Dwyane Wade's points came inside of 15 feet or the free throw line, and only 515 of Dwyane Wade's points came from 15 feet and out.So 75% of Dwyane Wade's points came from inside of 15 feet and the free throw line." * 82% of Tyreke Evans's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 75% of Dwyane Wade's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 71% of Carmelo Anthony's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 70% of Kevin Durant's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 68% of LeBron James's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 68% of Derrick Rose's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 66% of Kobe Bryant's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 66% of Monta Ellis's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 63% of Brandon Roy's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 62% of Dirk Nowitzki's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 61% of Stephen Jackson's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 61% of Deron Williams's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 58% of Joe Johnson's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. * 56% of Danny Granger's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined. http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/thenbazoneera.htm "Conclusion.... Not one perimeter superstar scored even half of his points from jumpers that were taken from 15 feet and out. So clearly the myth that zones force long distance jump shots is not true. Furthermore, teams rarely run zones. Teams can't hand check, can't chuck, can't hold away from the ball, can't get away with hard fouls to intimidate perimeter players without being suspended, can't stand in the lane longer than 3 seconds, and can't get credit for a charge inside of the circle. Playing physical defense, as well as playing "goalie" in the lane is discouraged." Even 39 years old MJ was putting up decent numbers, and had a .445 field goal% You may say only 1 team in jordans era held opponents to under 42% less, and 11 have in kobes era. Not much arguing there, facts cant lie. Almost every team has a much lower opponents fg%, while majority of the extreme % spike is from the early 2000s to 04. Even the 08-09 cavs posted the same opponents fg% as the 97-98 bulls, shocking. BUTTTT< we are only looking at ONE stat. I think the fact, despite the physical defenses we saw in the 80s/90s, and teams still scored a lot, speaks volumes. Anyway, this is actually a tiny bit more fun than opponents fg%. but I say the main reason, not entirely due to legalizing in zone, is simply change of pace, shot selection and overall team efficiency. 1985: team averagesFGA: 3542FGM: 7268FG% 487 3PA: 773PM: 2743P% 282 2PA: 34652PM: 69942P%: 495 2009: team averagesFGA: 3091 (-451)FGM: 6700 (-568)FG% 461 3PA: 527 (+450)3PM: 1487 (+1213)3P% 355 2PA: 2564 (-901)2PM: 5213 (-1781)2P%: 491 Teams now are scoring much less than what they did in the 90s, but nba over time you can see a trend where the points decrease. However, just because the points have been decreasing, does not mean defenses have been better, they may be smarter, but points per 100 possessions are relatively the same. This is due do to the change of pace in basketball. So i guess you can say, due to the stats, the physical defense in the 80s/90s is by no means harder to score than it is today. Its just a different set of pace/efficiency. Heres the list of defensive ratings/ efg ratings that I found from herehttp://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590376&page=5 79-80- 105.3...48.6%80-81- 105.5...48.9%81-82- 106.9...49.5%82-83- 104.7...48.8%83-84- 107.6...49.5%84-85- 107.9...49.6%85-86- 107.2...49.3%86-87- 108.3...48.8%87-88- 108.0...48.9%88-89- 107.8...48.9%89-90- 108.1...48.9%90-91- 107.7...48.7%91-92- 108.2...48.7%92-93- 108.0...49.1%94-95- 108.3...50.0%95-96- 107.6...49.9%96-97- 106.7...49.3%97-98- 105.0...47.8%98-99- 102.2...46.6%99-00- 104.1...47.8%00-01- 103.0...47.3%01-02- 104.5...47.7%02-03- 103.6...47.4%03-04- 102.9...47.1%04-05- 106.1...48.2%05-06- 106.2...49.0%06-07- 106.5...49.6%07-08- 107.5...49.7%08-09- 108.3...50.0%09-10- 107.6...50.1% As you can see, by the the NBAs defense was at its greatest in its history from 98 till the 04 season. Its now back at the level it was in the 80s. Bottom line is, nba is scoring just as much as it was in the past. pace is different. Main reason fg% is much lower than it was in the 80s/90s is the amount of 3 pointers that are now shot and different type of scoring mentality. Top players, such as kobe and wade, still score majority of their points inside the 15 foot line. If you to compare shooting %, the nba is roughly the same as it always was. If you take into account players shoot more 3s and more riskier shots than ever. For comparison, the 84-85 la lakers had an EFG% team rating of .551, where as the 07-08 phoenix suns also had a EFG% team rating of .551. Point is, fg% was much higher back then, but efg% was not. Another small comparison we can use is the TS%, True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws. Kobe bryants highest ts% .580 season was in 06-07, where he shot 31.6 ppg, .463% and took 22.8 shots.MJ's highest ts% .614 season was 88-89, where he averaged 32.5ppg, .538fg%, and took shots. However, if you look at the 90-91 season, you will see Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg, .519%, and he 22.7 shots. What does that mean? "A. 3pt shooting. 3pt shooting will probably make up for the shots. If Kobe would've shot more from the mid or inside, he would have a better FG%. But he has proven time again that he takes bad shots and he'll shot the 3. It will adjust up. B. FT line. I think this is the issue of era. Jordan averaged 7.4 at the FT line while Kobe averaged 10.0. This adds up to Kobe's point total despite the number of shots he took. But this is also another reason of era differences. Kobe probably wouldn't get as many fouls called in the 80s or early 90s and Jordan will probably get more in the post 05. FT shooting and 3pt line is what TS take into consideration. You'll see how efficient the players are in that point."http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193660&page=5 MJ, career shooting % is .497, his EG% is .509, His TS% is .569Kobe Bryant career shooting % is .455, his EG% is .488, his TS% is .557. NO matter how you slice/cut/prepare it, Michael Jordan is the better scorer, and more efficient scorer. This is also just counting the regular season, where MJ’S best moments are, and as always, in the playoffs/finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 23, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 That's actually a better post. I have no problem replying to that. However, the reply is going to be short, because Bryant simply shot more difficult shots (threes, and contested jumpers). Why? Partially because he didn't have anyone else to take those shots on the team (not even in the Kobe/Shaq dynasty), partially because the zone pushed him out of the paint, and partially because Shaq pushed him out of the paint. It's not necessarily bad shot selection. People can point out 2-3 bad shots in about half of his games, sure, but that's not enough to swing a career FG% from 46% to 50%. What happened after the 1991-1992 season? Jordan never shot 50% or better, ever again. This is a 29-year old Jordan. The most threes attempted, by Jordan, in one season? It was 3.6. Kobe exceeded that eight times, with a high of 6.5 3PTA/G. Jordan's career FG% is 4% better. Check this out... 4,064 3PT20,841 FG20% of Kobe's shots are threes 1,778 3PT24,537 FG7% of Jordan's shots were threes If you consider the fact that Kobe shoots a lot of threes, and is the primary scoring option (and has been since 2000-01 season, based on FGA), it's impressive that he's at 46% FG. If you want to compare him to one of the greatest shooters of all-time, check out Ray Allen's career FG% (45%). While Allen has taken 2,000 more three-pointers and shoots the three 38% of the time, he has also shot poorly in Seattle, and even in Milwaukee a few times (when he was the primary option), but has been on fire in Boston, where he's more of a catch-and-shoot player, and not a primary option. When you have an expanded range, and you're asked to shoot 20-25 times a game, your FG% is going to decrease. It's true that Kobe's range is greater than Jordan's, correct? I'll show you something really interesting, to close out my end of the debate. Season numbers of... FG% is >= 47% (very generous here)FGA/G is >= 20 (basically what Jordan and Kobe have shot most of their careers)3PTA/G is >= 4 (near Kobe's career average of 3.8) Guess who has achieved this in NBA history (in a single season, not career)? Just three players...LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Dale Ellis. Kobe reached 46%, shot 4+ 3PTA/G and shot 20 FGA/G twice in his career. If only three players in NBA history achieved 47% while shooting those threes and that many shots per game, I don't think anyone should have a problem with Kobe's career 46% FG, especially considering the amount of defensive attention he gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 So.... With this logic CP3 is better than Magic Johnson? Yeah... http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/058/855/original/GTFO7.png?1278991790We really need a -1 button for posts like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 We really need a -1 button for posts like this I'd like a -1 button as well, but think what ECN's rep would look like...http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reno Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) That's actually a better post. I have no problem replying to that. However, the reply is going to be short, because Bryant simply shot more difficult shots (threes, and contested jumpers). Why? Partially because he didn't have anyone else to take those shots on the team (not even in the Kobe/Shaq dynasty), partially because the zone pushed him out of the paint, and partially because Shaq pushed him out of the paint. It's not necessarily bad shot selection. People can point out 2-3 bad shots in about half of his games, sure, but that's not enough to swing a career FG% from 46% to 50%. What happened after the 1991-1992 season? Jordan never shot 50% or better, ever again. This is a 29-year old Jordan. The most threes attempted, by Jordan, in one season? It was 3.6. Kobe exceeded that eight times, with a high of 6.5 3PTA/G. Jordan's career FG% is 4% better. Check this out... 4,064 3PT20,841 FG20% of Kobe's shots are threes 1,778 3PT24,537 FG7% of Jordan's shots were threes If you consider the fact that Kobe shoots a lot of threes, and is the primary scoring option (and has been since 2000-01 season, based on FGA), it's impressive that he's at 46% FG. If you want to compare him to one of the greatest shooters of all-time, check out Ray Allen's career FG% (45%). While Allen has taken 2,000 more three-pointers and shoots the three 38% of the time, he has also shot poorly in Seattle, and even in Milwaukee a few times (when he was the primary option), but has been on fire in Boston, where he's more of a catch-and-shoot player, and not a primary option. When you have an expanded range, and you're asked to shoot 20-25 times a game, your FG% is going to decrease. It's true that Kobe's range is greater than Jordan's, correct? I'll show you something really interesting, to close out my end of the debate. Season numbers of... FG% is >= 47% (very generous here)FGA/G is >= 20 (basically what Jordan and Kobe have shot most of their careers)3PTA/G is >= 4 (near Kobe's career average of 3.8) Guess who has achieved this in NBA history (in a single season, not career)? Just three players...LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Dale Ellis. Kobe reached 46%, shot 4+ 3PTA/G and shot 20 FGA/G twice in his career. If only three players in NBA history achieved 47% while shooting those threes and that many shots per game, I don't think anyone should have a problem with Kobe's career 46% FG, especially considering the amount of defensive attention he gets.Kobe took harder shots? If you mean longer/ more wilder shots, then yes, he has. But if you mean kobe always has more defenders/tougher defenses on him constantly compared to mj, Sorry I cant buy that. MJ had just as tough as a job getting to the basket and scoring points as kobe. I also disagree with your claim that kobe was the lead alpha dog over shaq. Its true kobe has more fg attempted overall in his three seasons of the dynasty, but more shots does not necessary mean he was the leader. Season wise, shaq was a much, much, more efficient shooter. Kobes eg% rating for each of those 3 seasons was at .484, .479, and .483. Compared to shaqs monstrous .572, .579, .574. In the playoffs it was .555, .529, .535. Where kobe was .485, .459, and .472. However, playoff average kobe still had a slight advantage over shaq with a 29.36 ppg average, and shaq had 28.63 ppg . Shaq edged kobe in the shot selection by 482 shots in the first championship run, where kobe averaged 88 shots more the second year, and 368 shots more his third year. However, if we wanted to compare using the usg% method, which is Usage Percentage the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor. Since kobe and shaq both missed a bit of games in the regular season, I will compare their usg % in the playoff run with their championship wins. In the first 99-00, shaq was 31.3%Shaq 00-01 was 32%Shaq 01-02 was 31.4% Kobe 99-00 was 26.7%, Kobe 00-01 was 30.3%, Kobe 01-02 was 29.8% So yes, kobe did play a big role in his championship run to the team, probably more so than what most people give him credit too, specially the second/third title, but still, shaq was without a doubt, the numero umero of the team at the time. Which is also a big reason why he won finals mvp all 3 times, And just for a side comparison, mj in the playoffs for his championship runs were 32.7, 37.1, 38.0, 32.9, 35.5, 36.6% Pippen was 25.2, 23.6, 26.2, 22.2, 24.9, 23.0% So you can see, while shaq still operated with a larger % of the team than kobe, the difference is much more closer compared to what mj-pippen relationship was at the time. Teams knew the ball would go in mj hands, and mj was the primary scorer. Shaq and kobe, it’s a different story. Though, kobe did inniate the offense, and same with pippen on the bulls, it does not make either player more important than the others on the court. And since when having one of the best centers of all time, a huge bigman, be a negative for a sg? If anything, that will help the player get more open/free shots. Ray allen is primary a 3 point shooter, so its still kinda unfair comparing his shooting% to kobes. Though, kobe does have a lot of 3 point shots, in fact, only 14 players have attempted more 3 pointers than kobe in the history of the nba, out of that group, only one has a lower 3p% than kobe. From 2003-2007,”only seven players have attempted more threes than Kobe. All seven have a better three-point percentage (.347).” Another interesting stat is if you look at MJ's 3 pointers in 89-90 and 92-93. He took 245 shots 1990 and 230 in 1993, at 52.6% and 49.5% fg%. Kobe has taken fewer than 230 shots from the 3 point line SEVEN times in his career, and his highest FG % in those seasons was 46.9. Jordan would have still shot a high FG % if he would have taken just as many 3s. “Number of games in which player has attempted at least 10 shots, including at least three threes:Jordan: 264Bryant: 626Of these games, Jordan has shot below 40 percent in just 34 or 12.9 percent of them. Kobe? He shot below 40 percent in 193 or 30.8 percent. Any way you cut it, Kobe has a bad shooting performance in almost one of every three games or 25 times per season. Jordan? A bad performance just under 11 times per season. Now that’s consistency.”http://bleacherreport.com/articles/562044-closing-the-case-why-michael-jordan-was-a-better-shooter-than-kobe-bryant Why didn’t mj score over 50% again in a season? Various reasons, but he still shot admirably high, and 2 seasons came awfully close with .495fg%. He still posted some high eg% #s, including a 515 in 92, 525 in 95, and a 516 in 96, all 3 which are higher than anything kobe has put up in his career. But yes, like I said earlier, the 3 point game is much different now than it was in jordans era. Jordan, and the league average, did not shoot anywhere close to how many 3 point shooters you see in todays game. That last stat you posted about LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Dale Ellis, is not really a fair comparison, as the league was different in both the 80s/90s in regards to 3 point shooting. And the fact that other than Dale ellis, 2 of the other players have achieved this status have only been playing since the past 7 years or so? If not less for Durant. Should speak for itself. More shots taken does not mean you have a bigger range, its just means you take more shots;p Kobe could have a slightly better range than Jordan cause he takes a lot more 3’s, but taking a lot of 3’s is not something that was normal in mj’s era. Its all being based on assumption. I think mj would have developed a better, more efficient 3 ball if he was playing in this era. You can say its impressive kobes shooting % is at .46, which and mj is at .497%, though that is including his 2 years with the wizards, its still impressive, even with the amount of 3 pointers kobe has taken. That said, what I think is really impressive is, the fact mj has a higher eg shooting %, higher ts%, higher usg %, slightly lower 3 point %, or maybe even higher depending on how you look at it, and a higher ppg. He also did this without a true, good big man. Kobes a great player, but mj is still much more efficient at getting the ball to the basket, which is what the whole point of basketball is about;p. And this is just offensively speaking Edited February 23, 2011 by Cutler=Pansy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 So.... With this logic CP3 is better than Magic Johnson? Yeah... http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/058/855/original/GTFO7.png?1278991790 I never said CP3 was better than Magic Johnson. I said revisionist history, and you try and make an extreme example. Just get off the computer and watch Dirk choke yet again the playoffs along wit the rest of the first round exit roster to be this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I never said CP3 was better than Magic Johnson. I said revisionist history, and you try and make an extreme example. Just get off the computer and watch Dirk choke yet again the playoffs along wit the rest of the first round exit roster to be this year. Too bad Dirk's numbers increase in the playoffs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawks Fly High Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think that if I needed a score on one play I would take Jordan. Kobe's decision-making is really questionable sometimes. But I believe over the course of a game Kobe is superior in picking his defender apart and exposing all his weaknesses if he has the green light to score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver P Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Too bad Oliver P doesn't post more, dude is a basketball genius. Thanks for the compliment man, I highly appreciate but "basketball genius" is definitely exaggerated lol... And yeah it's true that I don't post often but I never really was insanely active anyhow and this year I'm busier in really life so I can't be more active than that... But I'm glad to see that some people enjoy my posts haha. Anyhow back to topic for me the answer is Michael Jordan. I fact I believe that Michael is the best scorer of All Time. As I already said many times for me it's when it matters the most, in the playoffs and the Finals, that you see who the best players really are. And Jordan's scoring records in the playoffs and Finals are just beyond belief. First of all the Finals records : Jordan averaged 41 PPG against Phoenix in 93 which is the best scoring average ever in a Finals series. He scored 55 points in one game of the same 93 Finals, it's the second best ever performance in a finals game. He scored at least 20 points in 35 consecutive Finals games, another record (second is West with 25). He also scored at least 30 points in 9 Finals games, second best ever (Baylor was number one). He scored at least 40 points in 4 Finals games in a row, NBA record. He scored 35 points in one half of a finals game, NBA record once again. Also even if Jordan's weakness has always been the long range shot (certainly not the mid range shot, Jordan is definitely one of the very best mid range shooters ever and, contrary to what a lot of people think (yes a lot of people think that Jordan became a good shooter after his return in 95, well even if he attacked the rim more often he was already a very good shooter in the first part of his career), the mid range jump shot has always been his main weapon in fact) let's not forget that he hit 6 three pointers in one Finals game which was an NBA record at the time. It's now the third best NBA Finals performance for most 3 pters in one game. I have to precise that before the last Finals and Ray Allen's performance (8 three pointers), the record was 7 held by Smith and Pip who BOTH made that record when the three points line was closer to the rim . It's very important to take that in consideration. And Jordan also scored his six 3 pointers in one half. Second best NBA Finals record (behind Ray's 7 last year so), tied with Kenny Smith who did it once again when the three points line was closer to the rim. Then some other playoffs series records : Jordan scored 63 points in a playoffs game. NBA record. He's also the third in that same stat with 56 points in one game. He scored more than 20 points in a playoffs game 60 times in a row. NBA record. He has the second and third best scoring average for a playoffs series with 45.2 PPG and 45 PPG. The first once again is an Old School player, it's Jerry West. Very important fact : the players who were the closest to Jordan for each of these records all played in another era. Jordan did all this in our era which is even more impressive. Jordan always scored more points in the playoffs than he did in the regular season (at the exception of one season). Jordan's scoring average in playoffs in career is just amazing : 33.4 PPG. Way ahead of everyone else. For all these reasons I definitely believe that Jordan is the best scorer ever indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andre smoothwhite Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 KB, he's is a better overall shooter, can hit from anywhere and just can score anyway he wants. Plus Kobe these days has better competition than MJ had back in the day. He has too work alot harder, MJ had pippen and rodman nd other key stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) Jordan. Kobe's a more versatile scorer, but he was never as good around the rim as MJ, and he's always been a much streakier scorer due to his poor shot selection. His ability to get hot from 3 allowed him to go off for 81 and those other big games, but I value consistency far more than those rare explosions (especially considering that Jordan had a lot more 'big' scoring games in the post-season than Kobe has had). Besides being better around the rim, he was also a better post scorer than Kobe due to his strength advantage against most SG's, and he was more dangerous in the mid-range game because he used it a lot more often than Kobe ever has. Even if you put prime Jordan into today's league, with zone defense, he'd still be a more efficient scorer than Kobe because of how good he was inside the 3pt line, and how rarely he would go on a streak of taking poor shots like Kobe does. Oh, and if zone defenses can't stop Wade from getting to the rim and to the FT line, do you REALLY think it would stop a prime MJ?!? It wouldn't. Edited April 23, 2011 by Nitro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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