Past versus present: the point guard position

[Real Deal]

You need one now, in my opinion. Tony Parker wasn't the best passer, but he did it. Fisher was an exception. Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups (not amazing numbers, but still, good passing) and some of those great Nash teams who made the WCF a few times. CP3's hornets, D-Will's Jazz squad. Don't you dare compare MJ to elite passing, cause he's MJ, put MJ on the damn Raptors they're near the top seed.

The Lakers won five championships with Derek Fisher. That's not just an exception that happens here and there, that's five rings, two without Shaq.

 

Kidd finally got his ring...took him almost his entire career. He needed Dirk, Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a very good defensive squad to get it done.

 

Billups will never win another as a lead contributor, and the Pistons didn't win because of Billups, they won because of their defense and having four all-stars on the same team.

 

Nash is the only that that literally carried his team, as a PG, to success (his own system), and he never won it all, just like Stockton.

 

CP3 did it with the Hornets. Williams got Utah to the WCF.

 

My question is...if CP3 and Deron have done what Nash has done (with their teams, as the superstar), what's the big deal?

 

I'm assuming you're looking for another Magic Johnson, and you won't find that for a long, long time. Magic was the 80s, Stockton was the 90s, Nash and Kidd were last decade, and CP3, Williams and Rondo are right now.

 

I'm not seeing the problem.

[Real Deal]

I love debating with you, RD, I feel more educated then I was previously.

If it wasn't me, it would be someone else, lol. There are a lot of guys that seek debates around here, and that probably runs off a lot of members. Could be a good thing, though, because many of those that take off would just get pissed off if they are proven wrong, or would continue to post until they started feeling the need to troll.

[i am batman u die now]

The problem is that we have no Stockton. We have no amazingly elite guy who we look up to. It's something we're missing.

 

Scoring: Durant

Rebounding: Love

Dunking: Griffin

Shooting: Curry

Passing: ??? CP3? D-Will? But for how long? And none of those are Stock level.

 

Billups will never win another as a lead contributor, and the Pistons didn't win because of Billups, they won because of their defense and having four all-stars on the same team.

Billups isn't even in his prime, and according to that logic his assists apparently vanished into thin air and didn't help the Pistons at all. Stock and Magic where good defenders too, so was Kidd, Nash is an exception due to his lack of D.

 

Kidd finally got his ring...took him almost his entire career. He needed Dirk, Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a very good defensive squad to get it done.

Without Jason Kidd, the Mavs wouldn't of won a championship. His court vision, and ability to assist defensive players (Chandler) was extremely resourceful.

 

The Lakers won five championships with Derek Fisher. That's not just an exception that happens here and there, that's five rings, two without Shaq.

Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant where an amazing duo. There's no way in hell Derek Fisher could of been a key guy in those games. Wasn't Samaki Walker starting for LA at one time? Other positions weren't great on that team either. Pau Gasol and prime, fierce Kobe where another example of that. With Artest and other players taking the cash, Fisher has and always will be a filler.

Edited January 28, 2012 by i am batman u die now

[Real Deal]

Right. We don't have an elite passer any longer, one era had Cousy (good for his era), then Magic, then Stock, Nash, Kidd, CP3, Willy.. but going fourth post 2000's, who do we have that can put up 10+ APG? CP3, D-Will, Rondo's supporting cast is leaving soon, so I see him dropping later on..

I think you're not giving some of these young guys a chance. Rondo's supporting cast is leaving, true...what if Magic was on a bottom-feeding team in the 80s? Even though he is incredible, I'm not so sure he would average those massive assist numbers.

 

It's no coincidence that Stockton's numbers started to fall as Karl Malone dropped his scoring from 27 PPG to around 22-23. Even though Stockton was around 35 years old, we see guys like Nash and Kidd still throwing passes (Nash is days from 38 and still averaging over 10).

 

We don't know what John Wall would do with credible teammates. Wall is an incredible passer. I would argue he's actually one of the best passers in the NBA, but what happens if Magic Johnson has to pass to Andray Blatche, and guys who don't make the most of that pass (like Young and Crawford)?

 

Same with Irving, who is a rookie with little to work with.

[i am batman u die now]

I think you're not giving some of these young guys a chance. Rondo's supporting cast is leaving, true...what if Magic was on a bottom-feeding team in the 80s? Even though he is incredible, I'm not so sure he would average those massive assist numbers.

 

It's no coincidence that Stockton's numbers started to fall as Karl Malone dropped his scoring from 27 PPG to around 22-23. Even though Stockton was around 35 years old, we see guys like Nash and Kidd still throwing passes (Nash is days from 38 and still averaging over 10).

 

We don't know what John Wall would do with credible teammates. Wall is an incredible passer. I would argue he's actually one of the best passers in the NBA, but what happens if Magic Johnson has to pass to Andray Blatche, and guys who don't make the most of that pass (like Young and Crawford)?

 

Same with Irving, who is a rookie with little to work with.

There is no hypothetical questions. Stock's assists where almost always above ten, regardless of Karl Malone's productivity. Magic didn't have Kareem in the early 90's.. so, y'know, that's one weak spot I guess. John Wall might be THAT guy, THAT passer, we don't know yet.

[Real Deal]

The problem is that we have no Stockton. We have no amazingly elite guy who we look up to. It's something we're missing.

 

Scoring: Durant

Rebounding: Love

Dunking: Griffin

Shooting: Curry

Passing: ??? CP3? D-Will? But for how long? And none of those are Stock level.

For how long? They are still there, so it's irrelevant. We don't know who will lead the NBA in passing 2-3 years from now. We just dipped into this new decade.

 

Billups isn't even in his prime, and according to that logic his assists apparently vanished into thin air and didn't help the Pistons at all. Stock and Magic where good defenders too, so was Kidd, Nash is an exception due to his lack of D.

The defense of the player is meaningless in this conversation. I was just pointing out that Detroit won because of their defense. Sure, Billups' passing did help, but he's also not an elite passing PG, not even close to CP3 or Rondo, let alone Nash or Kidd (or Magic and Stock).

 

Without Jason Kidd, the Mavs wouldn't of won a championship. His court vision, and ability to assist defensive players (Chandler) was extremely resourceful.

Again, what else Kidd did is meaningless in regards to the debate...but he did average around eight assists a night, so I'll just look away. Can't say he led that team, though, because the offensive leader was Dirk, and defensively, it was Chandler (and that can't be debated, as he was the anchor they always searched for).

 

Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant where an amazing duo. There's no way in hell Derek Fisher could of been a key guy in those games. Wasn't Samaki Walker starting for LA at one time? Other positions weren't great on that team either. Pau Gasol and prime, fierce Kobe where another example of that. With Artest and other players taking the cash, Fisher has and always will be a filler.

He's still a PG, relevant to the debate. He's a defensive liability, doesn't pass well, but his team won championships.

 

Teams don't necessarily need excellent pass-first PG's to succeed. Look at the Miami Heat. The Thunder are the second best team in the NBA. The Bulls are the best. These three teams...one is led by a score-first PG, one depends heavily on a score-first PG, and the other have a starting PG that spots up from three, and a backup that's a score-first.

[i am batman u die now]

Again, what else Kidd did is meaningless in regards to the debate...but he did average around eight assists a night, so I'll just look away. Can't say he led that team, though, because the offensive leader was Dirk, and defensively, it was Chandler (and that can't be debated, as he was the anchor they always searched for).

How is it meaningless? You said it took him a long time, it did, but look what he did with a defensive line-up. Marion and Chandler where playing better with Kidd then without.

 

The defense of the player is meaningless in this conversation. I was just pointing out that Detroit won because of their defense. Sure, Billups' passing did help, but he's also not an elite passing PG, not even close to CP3 or Rondo, let alone Nash or Kidd (or Magic and Stock).

Didn't need to be - I was just saying he had that skill, he had... the ability, and he made use of it. You don't need to be on par with Nash or CP3 to be a good passer. He never lead the league, but he was GOOD, which helped them win. Passing and winning go hand in hand.

He's still a PG, relevant to the debate. He's a defensive liability, doesn't pass well, but his team won championships.

 

Teams don't necessarily need excellent pass-first PG's to succeed. Look at the Miami Heat. The Thunder are the second best team in the NBA. The Bulls are the best. These three teams...one is led by a score-first PG, one depends heavily on a score-first PG, and the other have a starting PG that spots up from three, and a backup that's a score-first.

Which is odd. Simply because most good teams HAD that PG, like the Nets with Kidd, Spurs with Parker, Mavs with Kidd, Suns with Nash, the evolving development of the current NBA point guard is not right in my eyes. Yes, you can win, but that's not his original objective, scoring I mean. Setting up other players and facilitating is the most important thing they have to do in my eyes. LeBron James is averaging 7 assists over in Miami, that's just because LeBron is an amazing player, like Jordan. They both where versatile.

[Real Deal]

Magic didn't have Kareem in the early 90's.. so, y'know, that's one weak spot I guess.

The difference between me saying that Magic would have to team with Blatche...and Magic having James Worthy in 1991 (the last season Magic played, I don't consider the 32 games in 1996)...is incredibly huge. Worthy was twenty times the player Blatche was.

 

In fact, that Lakers team also had Perkins, Scott and Divac, all players I consider better than Andray Blatche...and all three, plus Worthy, were double-digit scorers for Magic.

 

There is no hypothetical questions. Stock's assists where almost always above ten, regardless of Karl Malone's productivity.

Come on, dude. Stockton had six consecutive seasons under nine assists a night, to end his career, because Malone was declining.

 

The first three seasons of Stockton's career? He didn't reach nine assists a game, and that was because Malone was not around, or averaging under 22 a night (15 PPG in one of those seasons).

 

Once Malone hit 28 PPG, Stockton had his first 10+ APG seasons (13.8 APG, to be exact)...and once Malone fell to around 21 PPG, Stockton fell just as hard, eventually landing six consecutive under nine.

[i am batman u die now]

The difference between me saying that Magic would have to team with Blatche...and Magic having James Worthy in 1991 (the last season Magic played, I don't consider the 32 games in 1996)...is incredibly huge. Worthy was twenty times the player Blatche was.

 

In fact, that Lakers team also had Perkins, Scott and Divac, all players I consider better than Andray Blatche...and all three, plus Worthy, were double-digit scorers for Magic.

 

 

Come on, dude. Stockton had six consecutive seasons under nine assists a night, to end his career, because Malone was declining.

 

The first three seasons of Stockton's career? He didn't reach nine assists a game, and that was because Malone was not around, or averaging under 22 a night (15 PPG in one of those seasons).

 

Once Malone hit 28 PPG, Stockton had his first 10+ APG seasons (13.8 APG, to be exact)...and once Malone fell to around 21 PPG, Stockton fell just as hard, eventually landing six consecutive under nine.

The difference between me saying that Magic would have to team with Blatche...and Magic having James Worthy in 1991 (the last season Magic played, I don't consider the 32 games in 1996)...is incredibly huge. Worthy was twenty times the player Blatche was.

 

In fact, that Lakers team also had Perkins, Scott and Divac, all players I consider better than Andray Blatche...and all three, plus Worthy, were double-digit scorers for Magic.

Compare that to his former supporting cast, though. I might be wrong, but was Divac even reaching 10 PPG with the Lakers when Magic was around? Byron Scott was decent, Worthy was passing his prime.. Perkins was OKAY, but still. His talent wasn't all that amazing, he didn't have that good of a second option. Worthy was aging.

 

Isn't it odd when Malone was great, Stockton was too? Why can't we flip that around, when John practiced on his passing and studied the court more, Malone excelled because of that?

Edited January 28, 2012 by i am batman u die now

[Real Deal]

How is it meaningless? You said it took him a long time, it did, but look what he did with a defensive line-up. Marion and Chandler where playing better with Kidd then without.

Meaningless if we're talking about a player passing at an elite level. Kidd's defense doesn't hold any water in the convo. Passing and defense are two separate things.

 

Didn't need to be - I was just saying he had that skill, he had... the ability, and he made use of it. You don't need to be on par with Nash or CP3 to be a good passer. He never lead the league, but he was GOOD, which helped them win. Passing and winning go hand in hand.

Well, if we consider Billups a good passer, you opened up a can of worms, because Lowry is there. Rondo is elite compared to Billups. Same with Lawson. Rubio is incredible (forgot about him, he's part of the future, as you stated). Same with Curry, who is a better passer than Billups (and by the way, Billups has always been a scoring PG, more of a combo guard because of it).

 

So we have CP3, Williams, Rondo, Wall, Rubio, Lowry...Irving could be in the mix if he had a teammate to pass to, but he hasn't played a full season yet, so no point in judging him.

 

Again, you won't find another Magic, but what happens when you stick Rondo in there with three other all-stars (just like Magic had with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Green)? They win a championship. Rondo isn't Magic, but he has been incredible throwing passes most of his career.

 

Give Rondo a LeBron James. Where does that team go? Probably as far as Malone and Stockton. James, with a defensive team around him, won 60+ games.

 

The real problem is, superstars are now dominating the league, and pass-first players aren't getting 14 APG because they are either on a team with a ball-dominating superstar (like LeBron and Durant), or are on a horrible team with nobody to pass to.

 

It's not the PG that has changed, it's the game itself.

[i am batman u die now]

Anyways, not trying to be rude, but it is really late where I reside, and I'd like to take the debate to PM, if you'd like that RD. I need to sleep.

[Real Deal]

Compare that to his former supporting cast, though. I might be wrong, but was Divac even reaching 10 PPG with the Lakers when Magic was around? Byron Scott was decent, Worthy was passing his prime.. Perkins was OKAY, but still. His talent wasn't all that amazing, he didn't have that good of a second option. Worthy was aging.

Worthy was putting up over 21 a night (career average 17), on 49% FG, that season. Divac was giving LA 11 PPG, 8 RPG, and 57% FG.

 

Perkins averaged 18 PPG on 55% FG in that playoff run for the Lakers in 1991. I'd say he was more than okay. He played like an all-star.

 

Isn't it odd when Malone was great, Stockton was too? Why can't we flip that around, when John practiced on his passing and studied the court more, Malone excelled because of that?

Might as well say that. Both fed off of each other, which is why I'm considering the duo over the PG. I can't tell you what Stockton would do without Malone, just as much as you can't tell me what John Wall would have done with a prime Tim Duncan.

[i am batman u die now]

Worthy was putting up over 21 a night (career average 17), on 49% FG, that season. Divac was giving LA 11 PPG, 8 RPG, and 57% FG.

 

Perkins averaged 18 PPG on 55% FG in that playoff run for the Lakers in 1991. I'd say he was more than okay. He played like an all-star.

 

 

Might as well say that. Both fed off of each other, which is why I'm considering the duo over the PG. I can't tell you what Stockton would do without Malone, just as much as you can't tell me what John Wall would have done with a prime Tim Duncan.

You can't tell me what Wall would do without Duncan either. Cause that never happened. Oh, and Gortat's average 17/11 I believe, but he's no all star.

[Real Deal]

Anyways, not trying to be rude, but it is really late where I reside, and I'd like to take the debate to PM, if you'd like that RD. I need to sleep.

I don't dive into that stuff in PM's. The reason I post in debates is for the site only...and nobody can read along if it's in a PM. I wouldn't debate any member, even our veterans of seven years, because of that alone.

 

Go ahead and hit the sheets, not a big deal. Maybe some others will join in tomorrow. I have work to do anyway.

[i am batman u die now]

I'm not going to insult your mother and brag about pooping on your lawn via PM, Deal.

[i am batman u die now]

But sure.

 

Well, if we consider Billups a good passer, you opened up a can of worms, because Lowry is there. Rondo is elite compared to Billups. Same with Lawson. Rubio is incredible (forgot about him, he's part of the future, as you stated). Same with Curry, who is a better passer than Billups (and by the way, Billups has always been a scoring PG, more of a combo guard because of it).

There's a difference between elite and good. I did not claim he was on Stockton level, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for good, I'm looking for great. We'll always have those below 10 guys, which is fine, but it is ODD having NO point guards around who can put that up night in, night out. Billups wasn't a combo guard, not in Denver or in Detroit. He's always played the Point, without the Clippers exception.

 

Speaking of opening up a can, if Billups isn't a true PG, does that mean Westbrook, Teague, Rose and Lawson aren't either? If they're primarily scorers, doesn't that (by the logic you've presented) insinuate that they're SG's by heart, too?

[Real Deal]

There's a difference between elite and good. I did not claim he was on Stockton level, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for good, I'm looking for great. We'll always have those below 10 guys, which is fine, but it is ODD having NO point guards around who can put that up night in, night out. Billups wasn't a combo guard, not in Denver or in Detroit. He's always played the Point, without the Clippers exception.

 

Speaking of opening up a can, if Billups isn't a true PG, does that mean Westbrook, Teague, Rose and Lawson aren't either? If they're primarily scorers, doesn't that (by the logic you've presented) insinuate that they're SG's by heart, too?

LOL @ the copy/paste job from the PM. My turn...

 

I never said Billups played the two-guard in Detroit. I said he played like a combo guard. He set up for shots, he created his own, and he's a scoring two-guard that has to play the point because he lacks length to defend the longer two's.

 

He did play minutes at the two in Denver, though.

 

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DEN2.HTM#bypos

 

That's just one season...I don't have time to look up the rest.

 

And Rose is doing a lot more passing than usual. He creates far more than Billups ever did. Chauncey did a lot of spotting up for shots, feeding off of others. Rose creates for others, and gets his shots in as a primary option, a LeBron in a PG's body, of sorts.

 

Westbrook has also created much more than Billups...just not this season. Last year, and the year before, he was playing like a PG...until the second half, where he became selfish, and into the playoff run.

 

Teague is different. He doesn't have the ball in his hands enough to matter. If Johnson wasn't around, that could change everything. Teague puts up decent assist numbers, shoots probably 10 times a game, so it's really hard to tell if he's able to play as a very good PG.

 

As you said, you're looking for someone on Stockton's level. That's a pretty high stepping stone. Stockton is the second greatest PG in history. Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Nash, Kidd, Zeke...if you're looking for those players, you'll only find one every decade or so, lucky to find two with Kidd and Nash. CP3 is pretty damn good, but hasn't had the support those others have had. David West doesn't match up to ANY teammates those guys had.

[Real Deal]

I'm not going to insult your mother and brag about pooping on your lawn via PM, Deal.

Nah, really, that's not it...don't worry.

 

The more people watching, the bigger the chance they jump in and turn this into a five-day debate, lol.

[i am batman u die now]

I'm little and new, I'll get gangbanged with knowledge. :o

 

Debate's kind of settled though, we had a long discussion and we kinda reached thee same opinion. Finding another Nash or Stock or Kidd will be hard, but we need one.

Edited January 28, 2012 by i am batman u die now

[ChosenOne]

He's had multiple 20+ point games though, Scola's been meh and Martin's putting up career lows.

 

Scola is averaging 16ppg which is only a point or so from last year and Martin is averaging 20ppg which is right there where he basically always is. Just saying.

 

Lowery has been putting up great number so far this season but is no where near our first option on offense.

Edited January 28, 2012 by ChosenOne