Real Deal

Meaningless if we're talking about a player passing at an elite level. Kidd's defense doesn't hold any water in the convo. Passing and defense are two separate things. Well, if we consider Billups a good passer, you opened up a can of worms, because Lowry is there. Rondo is elite compared to Billups. Same with Lawson. Rubio is incredible (forgot about him, he's part of the future, as you stated). Same with Curry, who is a better passer than Billups (and by the way, Billups has always been a scoring PG, more of a combo guard because of it). So we have CP3, Williams, Rondo, Wall, Rubio, Lowry...Irving could be in the mix if he had a teammate to pass to, but he hasn't played a full season yet, so no point in judging him. Again, you won't find another Magic, but what happens when you stick Rondo in there with three other all-stars (just like Magic had with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Green)? They win a championship. Rondo isn't Magic, but he has been incredible throwing passes most of his career. Give Rondo a LeBron James. Where does that team go? Probably as far as Malone and Stockton. James, with a defensive team around him, won 60+ games. The real problem is, superstars are now dominating the league, and pass-first players aren't getting 14 APG because they are either on a team with a ball-dominating superstar (like LeBron and Durant), or are on a horrible team with nobody to pass to. It's not the PG that has changed, it's the game itself.

The difference between me saying that Magic would have to team with Blatche...and Magic having James Worthy in 1991 (the last season Magic played, I don't consider the 32 games in 1996)...is incredibly huge. Worthy was twenty times the player Blatche was. In fact, that Lakers team also had Perkins, Scott and Divac, all players I consider better than Andray Blatche...and all three, plus Worthy, were double-digit scorers for Magic. Come on, dude. Stockton had six consecutive seasons under nine assists a night, to end his career, because Malone was declining. The first three seasons of Stockton's career? He didn't reach nine assists a game, and that was because Malone was not around, or averaging under 22 a night (15 PPG in one of those seasons). Once Malone hit 28 PPG, Stockton had his first 10+ APG seasons (13.8 APG, to be exact)...and once Malone fell to around 21 PPG, Stockton fell just as hard, eventually landing six consecutive under nine.

For how long? They are still there, so it's irrelevant. We don't know who will lead the NBA in passing 2-3 years from now. We just dipped into this new decade. The defense of the player is meaningless in this conversation. I was just pointing out that Detroit won because of their defense. Sure, Billups' passing did help, but he's also not an elite passing PG, not even close to CP3 or Rondo, let alone Nash or Kidd (or Magic and Stock). Again, what else Kidd did is meaningless in regards to the debate...but he did average around eight assists a night, so I'll just look away. Can't say he led that team, though, because the offensive leader was Dirk, and defensively, it was Chandler (and that can't be debated, as he was the anchor they always searched for). He's still a PG, relevant to the debate. He's a defensive liability, doesn't pass well, but his team won championships. Teams don't necessarily need excellent pass-first PG's to succeed. Look at the Miami Heat. The Thunder are the second best team in the NBA. The Bulls are the best. These three teams...one is led by a score-first PG, one depends heavily on a score-first PG, and the other have a starting PG that spots up from three, and a backup that's a score-first.

I think you're not giving some of these young guys a chance. Rondo's supporting cast is leaving, true...what if Magic was on a bottom-feeding team in the 80s? Even though he is incredible, I'm not so sure he would average those massive assist numbers. It's no coincidence that Stockton's numbers started to fall as Karl Malone dropped his scoring from 27 PPG to around 22-23. Even though Stockton was around 35 years old, we see guys like Nash and Kidd still throwing passes (Nash is days from 38 and still averaging over 10). We don't know what John Wall would do with credible teammates. Wall is an incredible passer. I would argue he's actually one of the best passers in the NBA, but what happens if Magic Johnson has to pass to Andray Blatche, and guys who don't make the most of that pass (like Young and Crawford)? Same with Irving, who is a rookie with little to work with.

If it wasn't me, it would be someone else, lol. There are a lot of guys that seek debates around here, and that probably runs off a lot of members. Could be a good thing, though, because many of those that take off would just get pissed off if they are proven wrong, or would continue to post until they started feeling the need to troll.

The Lakers won five championships with Derek Fisher. That's not just an exception that happens here and there, that's five rings, two without Shaq. Kidd finally got his ring...took him almost his entire career. He needed Dirk, Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a very good defensive squad to get it done. Billups will never win another as a lead contributor, and the Pistons didn't win because of Billups, they won because of their defense and having four all-stars on the same team. Nash is the only that that literally carried his team, as a PG, to success (his own system), and he never won it all, just like Stockton. CP3 did it with the Hornets. Williams got Utah to the WCF. My question is...if CP3 and Deron have done what Nash has done (with their teams, as the superstar), what's the big deal? I'm assuming you're looking for another Magic Johnson, and you won't find that for a long, long time. Magic was the 80s, Stockton was the 90s, Nash and Kidd were last decade, and CP3, Williams and Rondo are right now. I'm not seeing the problem.

Seems like Cousy was as well. So we have Magic and Stockton, Nash and Kidd. Two are still playing in this era. One is from the 80s, one dominated the 90s. Nash and Kidd did most of their damage in the 2000s. We can just take Nash and Kidd, then...same decade...and say we have CP3, Williams and Rondo. Sounds about right.

Cousy played with Heinsohn, Sharman and Ramsey, very good scorers...at the same time. Russell was in there as well, wasn't even a third option on that team...

Well, again, if we go back to your numbers (about Magic and Stockton, really), you're giving me two great passers...one in the 80s, one in the 90s. Only one of those won an NBA championship, despite being on a team with the second leading scorer in NBA history. Why doesn't Stockton have a ring? Because a Bulls team, with a selfish scorer in MJ (he was selfish, as was some of the greatest scorers of all time) and no solid pass-first PG to create for anyone, won six in the 90s...and when Jordan wasn't around, it was Hakeem and his Rockets, who also didn't need an elite pass-first PG.

Hell, Maravich never had 7+ APG in his career...so the number of assists have to be irrelevant.

Here...you gave me Bob Cousy for an example, so how's this: from 1947-1961, NO point guard had 10+ APG. Zero. How about, since you gave me Pistol Pete...from 1968-1977, only TWO point guards had 10+ APG.

Both Brown and Hodges were forced to play the point half of the time they were in their lineups, especially Brown. When Sherman Douglas would get rest, Brown would move to the point, and Kevin Gamble would play the two (or Reggie Lewis). Either way, there were plenty of PG's that didn't play the passing game very well. Hahaha, the assists leaders from 1984-1996 were all John Stockton and Magic Johnson, that's why. Just one season, Zeke led in assists...that's it. Stockton was there nine times in a row. And that's going to happen, when you combine one of the greatest PG's in the history of the league with a top two PF in NBA history...or Magic with one of the greatest Lakers squads of all time (Showtime, with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Green and Scott).

I'm starting to think Bogut just hates basketball. He's either missing games due to injuries, or he has a cold and misses a game, or has a funeral to attend, or has to go grocery shopping...something.

Next on the agenda: go straight to the FO and tell them Blatche is lazy in practice, lazy on the court, and is a huge detriment to the team and needs dealt.

Rose is 23.87, basically the same as CP3's...while Nash (who is pass-first and averages 10 APG) is at 22.52. Rondo (pass-first) is even lower than all of those above, at 20.44 (and he's averaging 9.4 APG), and Kyrie Irving is right above him. PER is irrelevant.

Look at Nash's turnovers since 2005 (Nash is one player you named). You mean like Pistol Pete was for most of his teams? He averaged up to 31 PPG at one point. Pistol is another you named. And you named Stockton (90s), Cousy (50s), Maravich (70s), Kidd (90s-00s), and Nash (00s)...different decades. What about the rest who weren't elite? Hersey Hawkins didn't pass the ball like a PG. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf? Gus Williams? BJ Armstrong? World B. Free? Dee Brown, Lindsey Hunter, David Wesley, Derek Fisher, Craig Hodges, Bimbo Coles, Dana Barros, Johnny Davis, Sedale Threatt, Robert Pack, Larry Drew, John Battle, Mookie Blaylock...what was the excuse when these PG's weren't going out and dominating the passing game (like a Nash or Magic)?

The Magic are embarrassing. They didn't look too bad to start the season, could have predicted that Dwight was happy, but I have no idea how he could be happy with this.

OKC had Durant over 30, Westbrook at or around 30 points, and Harden nearly had 20. They have a lot of firepower. It would be nice if Harden was a full-time starter. I think he contributes quite a bit off the bench, but OKC would blow people out easier if they just came in and tore the roof off early. It's not like Harden would be a conflict in that five, either, and there's no need to worry about bench production, as long as you keep one of the three scorers in the five throughout the game. He's playing big minutes, anyway.

Not sure why he wouldn't. I was watching MJ when I was six, back in 1989, and I distinctly remember his best games without having to watch them at my age right now. That's MJ, of course, but I can also recall almost every teammate from the Bulls team and remember them from those games, including Craig Hodges, Ed Nealy, and Charles Davis, before he won his first championship. The NBA was still using NBC back in 2001, if I recall correctly, and that was only 11 years ago. A lot of us on OTR are 18+ years old, and I'm sure most remember at 8-9 years old. Maybe a few guys were bigger fans of the game than others, and watched more than one team. I sure did, watched basketball at age six almost as much as I do at age 28, regarding live TV (excluding League Pass).

Chris Paul Deron Williams Rajon Rondo Those are three of the five best PG's in the NBA today, all young, and they pass the ball very well. Rose and Westbrook are the two exceptions, of course, but I can't really say that today's PG's are going away from that. You named Rubio, and I gave you three above. What about John Wall and Kyle Lowry, as well?

Two have been submitted already. Let's make this interesting!

Well, if anything, I would rather just go with nominations over everything else...or the staff just making the decision (or even me). The rep/post idea can't happen, because there are numerous guys that have gotten older over the years and have been less active AFTER the rep system was installed. ALCS is one of them. It shows he has 25,800 posts...with just 36 rep. Same with my brother, who racked up over 10,000 posts all before rep was even used, and he has zero rep. -------- So what I would be faced with would be putting SOME in there for what they did pre-rep, and then others using the rep/post idea...and it has to stay consistent. Plus, the reputation handed out on OTR...a lot of it isn't given for the best posts. Plenty has been added for smart remarks to other people. The bad thing about leaning towards nominations is that...some of you have no idea who Erin is (just an example), or you weren't around when Jammin was posting as much as I was. Quite frankly, I don't really care much for the 10k post requirement, either...but what it does do is it promotes longevity (because nobody will be spamming OTR to get to 10k that quickly) and actual contribution. I realize what Blasco did while he was here (he's probably done posting for good, I talked to him the other day), but he really did everything in a matter of two years, which I'm grateful for, but what does it say if I stick him in the HOF and ignore Dee, who has been here since 2005? I just don't want to make this a popularity contest, and I don't want 40 members in there within the next two years. Considering we already have 20+ going in (and really, I could argue for all of them deserving it), it's going to be tough to apply a filter and leave them out, sticking others in there because they supposedly know the game more than others.

Not many...just two. They were all on the old board (pre-hack). We've only had two SOTM contests here. Guru won the first one (three participants), and the second one was...well, not a contest...just one entry. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/5515-september-2009-sotm http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/8952-january-sotm-voting

http://www.otrbasketball.com/images/jerseys/theanswerisai3.jpg http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/user/3-theanswerisai3 Most of the older members will remember my brother. Many don't know that he was my first administrator on OTR. What people will remember, though, is him taking advantage of plenty of GM's in our mock offseason contests, never making a deal that didn't benefit his team and, usually, taking a team of two stars and decent role players and turning them into three superstars and a couple of all-stars. Terry was always a fan of Allen Iverson, and that one player was the reason he loved watching basketball. Once Iverson was traded to Detroit, Terry's love for the game (specifically the NBA) diminished a bit, and eventually, that (and his heavy work schedule) led to his departure from the site. He started posting over at JBB when he was pretty young, came over the first day I put the site up (forced him to, lol), and he was just 14 years old. Now he's a few months from being 22. http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3835/terry35.jpg http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/7769/cutpichalloween.jpg http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/552836_3613936185485_2111224916_n.jpg While he was here, he was the first to create all 1,230 gameday topics, as it was his idea (he did this manually, by the way). He also created many signatures and avatars for others to use, and became pretty damn good at it, eventually having his own website to showcase his artwork. http://i43.tinypic.com/30v0pyv.jpg What do you remember the most about TheAnswerIsAi3? I'm assuming everyone will say the mock, haha...I can't recall any other member tearing through them like he did. Quite a while ago, huh? Congrats, Terry. You're an OTR Hall of Famer.

Hahaha, that shot by Gasol had me rolling. I've seen Pau do that shit over and over again, trying to put the ball on the floor, then takes that awkward sideways-fadeaway hook-jumper.