Ty Lawesome - mini J-Kidd

[Multi-Billionaire]

We got a mini JKidd in Ty Lawson...

 

Strong, quick, very damn good defensive player... pushes the ball like JKidd, he will avg. 13 ppg (possibly even more) and 8 apg this year. KMart will say, "damn, you remind me of someone back in New Jersey, thanks for the alley oop again..."

 

KMart will average 16ppg this year, highest since he left NJ because Ty is giving him 3 oops a game.

 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised that he plays so well that GK will start him and put Billups as a 6th man (mostly to save Billups legs). Billups off the bench would be so good for us... how he'd steady the second unit's performance, and for himself. And Ty's progress would be rapid.

[Poe]

So when is Ty getting his first triple double?

[Multi-Billionaire]

^I don't play stats like you kids do.

 

Their style of play is similar, not stat, you will see this season.

[Doc]

If you have a mini Jason Kidd, then you have a PG that can do everything and be one of the best defenders. That is why Poe made that reference. Not just stats wise.

 

From your post, you make it say, Lawson is going to be the next Kidd because he is throwing allys to K-Mart. Reason that isn't don't anymore is

 

a) K-Mart knees aren't what the are like before

b) He isn't as much as a threat as he was in NJ.

 

Sure this is preseason and all.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Haha don't take it so seriously.

 

But "mini" is not as good as original wouldn't you agree? That's why I put in the thread title "mini", not "the next JKidd".

[Poe]

And concerning K-Mart, there is a reason the Nuggets brought in Al Harrington.

[NomarFachix]

Because his name is Al Harrington and he gets buckets?

[Check my Stats]

So when is Ty getting his first triple double?

 

+1.

[Poe]

Because his name is Al Harrington and he gets buckets?

 

And plays the same position as Kenyon Martin, who's contract is expiring.

[BasX]

Because his name is Al Harrington and he gets buckets?

HA HA

[Real Deal]

So wait...all of your predictions wrapped up in a bundle here:

 

Afflalo - 15 PPG (8.8 PPG last season)

Lawson - 13 PPG (8.3 PPG last season)

Martin - 16 PPG (11.5 PPG last season)

 

Carmelo, Harrington, Billups, Smith, Nene...all going to average under 15 PPG each? Because Denver isn't going to score 120+ PPG.

[Nitro]

Hahahahahaha....oh boy this is funny.

 

1) Ty Lawson is 5'11'', 195lbs, One of the things that has always characterized Kidd's game is his size and strength. Kidd is 6'4'' and was listed as 205lbs at the draft (since he came to the Nets he's been at least 220lbs...IMO). A huge part of his game is posting up smaller guards and overpowering them, both on the offensive and defensive end, which allows Kidd to be able to defend 2, and sometimes up to 3 positions. No matter how hard Lawson tries, he'll never be the physical presence Kidd is/was.

 

2) Kidd averaged 8.2 assists per 36min his rookie season, and has never gone below that mark in his career. Lawson was at a respectable 5.6 assists per 36min last season, but he just doesn't display a similar court awareness/savviness/vision that Kidd did at the same age. Kidd got his assists off being the ultimate floor general and knowing where each person would be 5 seconds before they got there. Lawson gets his assists in the more common (but still effective) dribble penetration. Lawson is a good, true PG, but he's not anywhere near where Kidd was at the same age, and does his work in a different style.

 

3) The difference in their rebounding abilities is astronomical. In his prime Kidd was pulling down 7-8 boards per game (in his rookie season nearly 6RPG), and it is what has made him the triple double machine he is known for and what always separated him from other elite PG's. He changed games on the glass, an area that Lawson will NEVER be a game-changer in.

 

4) Lawson is always going to be at a disadvantage defensively due to his size, and will never be an impact defender. Kidd was the best defender at his position for a number of years.

 

5) Lawson is going to be a better scorer, and is much better than Kidd ever was at dribble penetration with the intent to score.

 

 

In other words, Lawson doesn't play anything like Kidd, not warranting the "mini-Kidd" title.

[Multi-Billionaire]

So wait...all of your predictions wrapped up in a bundle here:

 

Afflalo - 15 PPG (8.8 PPG last season)

Lawson - 13 PPG (8.3 PPG last season)

Martin - 16 PPG (11.5 PPG last season)

 

Carmelo, Harrington, Billups, Smith, Nene...all going to average under 15 PPG each? Because Denver isn't going to score 120+ PPG.

 

Melo is gonna be traded for Favors sooner or later...

 

As for the rest, yup they're my prediction. I think Billups' ppg is going to plummet this year... mainly because GK is going to start Ty and start Billups as 6th man.

 

 

 

Hahahahahaha....oh boy this is funny.

 

1) Ty Lawson is 5'11'', 195lbs, One of the things that has always characterized Kidd's game is his size and strength. Kidd is 6'4'' and was listed as 205lbs at the draft (since he came to the Nets he's been at least 220lbs...IMO). A huge part of his game is posting up smaller guards and overpowering them, both on the offensive and defensive end, which allows Kidd to be able to defend 2, and sometimes up to 3 positions. No matter how hard Lawson tries, he'll never be the physical presence Kidd is/was.

 

2) Kidd averaged 8.2 assists per 36min his rookie season, and has never gone below that mark in his career. Lawson was at a respectable 5.6 assists per 36min last season, but he just doesn't display a similar court awareness/savviness/vision that Kidd did at the same age. Kidd got his assists off being the ultimate floor general and knowing where each person would be 5 seconds before they got there. Lawson gets his assists in the more common (but still effective) dribble penetration. Lawson is a good, true PG, but he's not anywhere near where Kidd was at the same age, and does his work in a different style.

 

3) The difference in their rebounding abilities is astronomical. In his prime Kidd was pulling down 7-8 boards per game (in his rookie season nearly 6RPG), and it is what has made him the triple double machine he is known for and what always separated him from other elite PG's. He changed games on the glass, an area that Lawson will NEVER be a game-changer in.

 

4) Lawson is always going to be at a disadvantage defensively due to his size, and will never be an impact defender. Kidd was the best defender at his position for a number of years.

 

5) Lawson is going to be a better scorer, and is much better than Kidd ever was at dribble penetration with the intent to score.

 

 

In other words, Lawson doesn't play anything like Kidd, not warranting the "mini-Kidd" title.

 

 

1.) Dude this post here shows you don't observe well. Even as a rook, TV analysts everywhere already said Lawson is one of the strongest guards in the L. Check his muscles. He can absorb contact airborne and still finish unlike most PGs in the L. His strength is the same class as Deron, Billups. Again, check his muscles. His biceps and triceps are probably bigger than Melo's... he's gotten a lot stronger in the summer. Sometimes you don't know your stuff dude, which is surprising to me.

 

 

2.) Dude, Kidd was a starter and won ROY. Lawson's minutes continued to go up and down strangely although he played well... and did not do anything to deserve less playing time. The coaches (Karl and Dantley) at times went away from him. The fluctuations of playing time did not do him good in stability of his production, including his assist. Obviously I acknowledge Kidd was better than Ty is probably ever going to be as a passer, Kidd is one of the best in NBA history, but Ty has the potential to average 10 apg. He's a pass first PG that is going to break down defenses with his speed and find open men... that's what Kidd has been doing.

 

 

3.) I'm not going to argue that Kidd was a better rebounder than Lawson is ever going to be. Of all your points presented, I agree with one thing only... this one.

 

 

4.) Again, you don't know your stuff sometimes... go watch Nuggets games pls before commenting. People always say Lawson is about speed this, speed that. But noone notices his defense. He doesn't use that quick footwork on offense only, but also to stay in front of his men defensively. He is as good as anyone in staying in front of people, of any player in the L I've seen since I became an NBA fan in 1996. George Karl also acknowledged this that defensively Ty is more than just "very good". He can be a special player defensively. He's got quick and strong hands to add to his quickness. His strength is going to allow him to resist strong guards who try to post him up.

 

 

5.) Kidd in his prime (with Nets) was a penetrating demon on the break, and even in half court sets. Some say he was faster with the ball than without, going coast-to-coast he was one of the toughest guys to defend against, because he could pass but also finish. Lawson operates in very same manner.

 

 

 

Again, I didn't say he's the "next J-Kidd" but "mini J-Kidd" is warranted all right, you'll see it this season.

[Nitro]

1.) Dude this post here shows you don't observe well. Even as a rook, TV analysts everywhere already said Lawson is one of the strongest guards in the L. Check his muscles. He can absorb contact airborne and still finish unlike most PGs in the L. His strength is the same class as Deron, Billups. Again, check his muscles. His biceps and triceps are probably bigger than Melo's... he's gotten a lot stronger in the summer. Sometimes you don't know your stuff dude, which is surprising to me.

 

When did I say Lawson wasn't strong? He is, but compared to Kidd he gives up about 5 inches and 20lbs. That's a BIG difference. Kidd never used his size to to finish against contact and such. He used his size to post up smaller players on offense, and be able to defend multiple positions on defense. Lawson is incapable of either because of the size difference. Lawson is average to below averagely sized at the PG position. Kidd is/was one of the biggest/tallest/strongest PG's in the league.

 

2.) Dude, Kidd was a starter and won ROY. Lawson's minutes continued to go up and down strangely although he played well... and did not do anything to deserve less playing time. The coaches (Karl and Dantley) at times went away from him. The fluctuations of playing time did not do him good in stability of his production, including his assist. Obviously I acknowledge Kidd was better than Ty is probably ever going to be as a passer, Kidd is one of the best in NBA history, but Ty has the potential to average 10 apg. He's a pass first PG that is going to break down defenses with his speed and find open men... that's what Kidd has been doing.

 

3 major problems:

 

-I am aware Kidd was a starter, which is why I used assists per 36min.

 

-Stop overblowing Lawson's ceiling in assists. Every year only 2-3 players break the 10APG plateau. One is a two-time MVP, one is a guy that put up arguably the greatest statline a PG has ever had 2 seasons ago, another is a franchise player that led his team to the WCF in his 2nd season, and the last one is Kidd himself.

 

-The fact that YOU JUST SAID Lawson is a PG that gets his assists by breaking down defenses with his speed is PRECISELY why he isn't J-Kidd like as a playmaker. Kidd has never been about blowing by defenders to get his assists, and dribble pentration overall was never his bread and butter. It's his impeccable court savvy, the ability to play in the post, ability to absolutely murder teams in the fastbreak by grabbing his own rebounds, the ability to see plays 5 seconds before they happen, and essentially is a master at making plays for teammates in any set.

 

4.) Again, you don't know your stuff sometimes... go watch Nuggets games pls before commenting. People always say Lawson is about speed this, speed that. But noone notices his defense. He doesn't use that quick footwork on offense only, but also to stay in front of his men defensively. He is as good as anyone in staying in front of people, of any player in the L I've seen since I became an NBA fan in 1996. George Karl also acknowledged this that defensively Ty is more than just "very good". He can be a special player defensively. He's got quick and strong hands to add to his quickness. His strength is going to allow him to resist strong guards who try to post him up.

 

Once again, I never said Lawson is a bad defender. I said that due to his size, he's always going to be at a disadvantage. He gives up at least 3 inches and 10lbs to the best post-up PG's in the league...Miller, Kidd, Billups, Williams, etc... We are talking about play style, not effectiveness, and a big chunk of Kidd's defensive style and value was his ability to defend big PG's, SG's (on the Nets he was given the Kobe/T-Mac assignment multiple times), and on rare occasion some SF's. Lawson doesn't offer anywhere near that versatility. Their defensive games are completely different.

 

5.) Kidd in his prime (with Nets) was a penetrating demon on the break, and even in half court sets. Some say he was faster with the ball than without, going coast-to-coast he was one of the toughest guys to defend against, because he could pass but also finish. Lawson operates in very same manner.

 

Trust me, coming from a guy who saw at least 70% of the games Kidd played as a Net (including at least 20 of them in person), I'll tell you why Kidd was so dangerous on the fastbreak- He grabbed his own boards and was one of the greatest passers of all-time that could make ANY pass. It is the same reason Rondo can be such a nightmare, and Jeff Van Guny talked about that fact a lot in the Finals. When the PG is able to pull down his own boards, it makes igniting the fastbreak a LOT easier and more dangerous.

 

And yes, Kidd is faster with the ball than without it, but his game has NEVER been predicated on speed. Never. He's always been average in that regard. He does his work off pure IQ and, at times, using his size advantage.

 

Also, since he joined the Nets at least, he's been a pretty awful finisher at the rim in a halfcourt set. Lawson already is better than Kidd ever was at penetrating with the intent to score, as I said in my first post.

 

 

 

Seriously, you have some balls to claim I don't watch Nuggets games when you have proven you know little to nothing about a guy that I watched play 20min away from me for 7 years. To claim Lawson is a mini-Kidd is a JOKE...they play nothing alike and Lawson will never, ever be as effective.

[Check my Stats]

Melo is gonna be traded for Favors sooner or later...

 

As for the rest, yup they're my prediction. I think Billups' ppg is going to plummet this year... mainly because GK is going to start Ty and start Billups as 6th man.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.) Dude this post here shows you don't observe well. Even as a rook, TV analysts everywhere already said Lawson is one of the strongest guards in the L. Check his muscles. He can absorb contact airborne and still finish unlike most PGs in the L. His strength is the same class as Deron, Billups. Again, check his muscles. His biceps and triceps are probably bigger than Melo's... he's gotten a lot stronger in the summer. Sometimes you don't know your stuff dude, which is surprising to me.

 

 

2.) Dude, Kidd was a starter and won ROY. Lawson's minutes continued to go up and down strangely although he played well... and did not do anything to deserve less playing time. The coaches (Karl and Dantley) at times went away from him. The fluctuations of playing time did not do him good in stability of his production, including his assist. Obviously I acknowledge Kidd was better than Ty is probably ever going to be as a passer, Kidd is one of the best in NBA history, but Ty has the potential to average 10 apg. He's a pass first PG that is going to break down defenses with his speed and find open men... that's what Kidd has been doing.

 

 

3.) I'm not going to argue that Kidd was a better rebounder than Lawson is ever going to be. Of all your points presented, I agree with one thing only... this one.

 

 

4.) Again, you don't know your stuff sometimes... go watch Nuggets games pls before commenting. People always say Lawson is about speed this, speed that. But noone notices his defense. He doesn't use that quick footwork on offense only, but also to stay in front of his men defensively. He is as good as anyone in staying in front of people, of any player in the L I've seen since I became an NBA fan in 1996. George Karl also acknowledged this that defensively Ty is more than just "very good". He can be a special player defensively. He's got quick and strong hands to add to his quickness. His strength is going to allow him to resist strong guards who try to post him up.

 

 

5.) Kidd in his prime (with Nets) was a penetrating demon on the break, and even in half court sets. Some say he was faster with the ball than without, going coast-to-coast he was one of the toughest guys to defend against, because he could pass but also finish. Lawson operates in very same manner.

 

 

 

Again, I didn't say he's the "next J-Kidd" but "mini J-Kidd" is warranted all right, you'll see it this season.

 

PAUSE.

Edited October 8, 2010 by travesy3

[Multi-Billionaire]

When did I say Lawson wasn't strong? He is, but compared to Kidd he gives up about 5 inches and 20lbs. That's a BIG difference. Kidd never used his size to to finish against contact and such. He used his size to post up smaller players on offense, and be able to defend multiple positions on defense. Lawson is incapable of either because of the size difference. Lawson is average to below averagely sized at the PG position. Kidd is/was one of the biggest/tallest/strongest PG's in the league.

 

Dude, this is no boxing contest where PGs have to have certain weight and height to be effective. John Stockton may have been 7 inch shorter than Magic Johnson, who is dubbed as the greatest passer in NBA history, but Stockton still got more career assist total at the end of the day.

 

He is athletic, strong, and quick to overcome his lack of height. You don't have to be similar height and weight to have similar playing style.

 

 

 

 

3 major problems:

 

-I am aware Kidd was a starter, which is why I used assists per 36min.

 

-Stop overblowing Lawson's ceiling in assists. Every year only 2-3 players break the 10APG plateau. One is a two-time MVP, one is a guy that put up arguably the greatest statline a PG has ever had 2 seasons ago, another is a franchise player that led his team to the WCF in his 2nd season, and the last one is Kidd himself.

 

-The fact that YOU JUST SAID Lawson is a PG that gets his assists by breaking down defenses with his speed is PRECISELY why he isn't J-Kidd like as a playmaker. Kidd has never been about blowing by defenders to get his assists, and dribble pentration overall was never his bread and butter. It's his impeccable court savvy, the ability to play in the post, ability to absolutely murder teams in the fastbreak by grabbing his own rebounds, the ability to see plays 5 seconds before they happen, and essentially is a master at making plays for teammates in any set.

 

- But you overlooked the fluctuations in Lawson's minutes... if Kidd had to deal with inconsistent playing time, I'm sure he wouldn't have averaged as many assist. No matter if you project it to 36mpg. The inconsistency in playing time hurts a player's rhythm and progress, especially a rookie. You will see this year, Lawson's minutes are going to be steady, and it will be fair then to project his apg per 36 mins to J-Kidd's 2nd year apg stat.

 

- How about Rondo? He averaged 9.8 apg (close to 10apg) and is nowhere near an MVP/ SUPERstar/ franchise caliber player you mentioned. Rondo's an All Star all right, but he's not an MVP type. He's very good, possibly great, but no legend like those guys (Magic, CP3).

 

- Kidd on the break not breaking transition defense?

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, I never said Lawson is a bad defender. I said that due to his size, he's always going to be at a disadvantage. He gives up at least 3 inches and 10lbs to the best post-up PG's in the league...Miller, Kidd, Billups, Williams, etc... We are talking about play style, not effectiveness, and a big chunk of Kidd's defensive style and value was his ability to defend big PG's, SG's (on the Nets he was given the Kobe/T-Mac assignment multiple times), and on rare occasion some SF's. Lawson doesn't offer anywhere near that versatility. Their defensive games are completely different.

 

Dude? What's the difference? You're still implying strong guards who post up are going to murder him. That's still saying his lack of height "make him play bad defense"... when I'm saying he's gotten stronger this summer, and those guys are not going to push him around as easily.

 

In terms of play style, obviously Kidd has more advantages being able to guard Kobe, T-Mac... Lawson is not going to do that. But he's good enough to guard PGs in this L and causes disruption with his strong, quick arms to go with his quick footwork. Get defensive stops and start the break, isn't it J-Kidd style?

 

 

 

Trust me, coming from a guy who saw at least 70% of the games Kidd played as a Net (including at least 20 of them in person), I'll tell you why Kidd was so dangerous on the fastbreak- He grabbed his own boards and was one of the greatest passers of all-time that could make ANY pass. It is the same reason Rondo can be such a nightmare, and Jeff Van Guny talked about that fact a lot in the Finals. When the PG is able to pull down his own boards, it makes igniting the fastbreak a LOT easier and more dangerous.

 

And yes, Kidd is faster with the ball than without it, but his game has NEVER been predicated on speed. Never. He's always been average in that regard. He does his work off pure IQ and, at times, using his size advantage.

 

Also, since he joined the Nets at least, he's been a pretty awful finisher at the rim in a halfcourt set. Lawson already is better than Kidd ever was at penetrating with the intent to score, as I said in my first post.

 

Are you kidding me? "Kidd has never been predicated on speed"? Are you on crack dude? The New Jersey highlights of Kidd that I remember are him going coast-to-coast beating transitional defense of 3-4-(sometimes)5 guys with his speed and ability to finish around the rim with that effective lay-up. At half-court set he may have not been a good finisher, but I'm talking in terms of pushing the ball on the break and making plays for either his teammates or himself.

 

 

 

Seriously, you have some balls to claim I don't watch Nuggets games when you have proven you know little to nothing about a guy that I watched play 20min away from me for 7 years. To claim Lawson is a mini-Kidd is a JOKE...they play nothing alike and Lawson will never, ever be as effective.

 

You claim Lawson is already better than Kidd ever was at penetrating with the intent to score. In other words, in terms of scoring, Lawson > Kidd in half court sets. But Lawson is adept as to change his intention if the big guy tries to block his shot, he can always change from scoring to dropping a pass to Nene/ KMart for an easy 2. So Lawson is more effective than Kidd at scoring in half court sets, but could also be as effective as Kidd at passing/ facilitating in half court sets. And if Lawson can match Kidd's effectiveness on the break, how can it be that "he will never, ever be as effective."?

[Real Deal]

But Lawson is adept as to change his intention if the big guy tries to block his shot, he can always change from scoring to dropping a pass to Nene/ KMart for an easy 2. So Lawson is more effective than Kidd at scoring in half court sets, but could also be as effective as Kidd at passing/ facilitating in half court sets.

Dude, are you kidding? I don't even know what to say to that, honestly. You're going out on a limb. You might as well say that Lawson has what it takes to be a top five point guard of all-time.

 

By the way, to add to the list of ridiculous predictions for Denver's players...I forgot about the JR Smith/Kobe Bryant comparison you made.

 

In a couple of seasons, man, you'll have two of the best players in the league, I guess, in Lawson and Smith.

[Nitro]

Dude, this is no boxing contest where PGs have to have certain weight and height to be effective. John Stockton may have been 7 inch shorter than Magic Johnson, who is dubbed as the greatest passer in NBA history, but Stockton still got more career assist total at the end of the day.

 

He is athletic, strong, and quick to overcome his lack of height. You don't have to be similar height and weight to have similar playing style.

 

When a huge part of Kidd's playing style is reliant on his size, it is a major factor in this discussion. We are discussing style, not necessarily effectiveness, and in that Stockton/Magic analogy they played two completely different ways as well.

 

- But you overlooked the fluctuations in Lawson's minutes... if Kidd had to deal with inconsistent playing time, I'm sure he wouldn't have averaged as many assist. No matter if you project it to 36mpg. The inconsistency in playing time hurts a player's rhythm and progress, especially a rookie. You will see this year, Lawson's minutes are going to be steady, and it will be fair then to project his apg per 36 mins to J-Kidd's 2nd year apg stat.

 

Good luck. Prepare for dissapointment.

 

- How about Rondo? He averaged 9.8 apg (close to 10apg) and is nowhere near an MVP/ SUPERstar/ franchise caliber player you mentioned. Rondo's an All Star all right, but he's not an MVP type. He's very good, possibly great, but no legend like those guys (Magic, CP3).

 

I was implying that breaking the 10APG mark is a pretty elite accomplishment. You have to have elite passing ability, and the players that have that tend to be MVP/superstar/franchise caliber players. There are certain exceptions, but Lawson has proven NOTHING to give off the impression that he will accomplish that feat. Rondo is an absolutely elite playmaker with amazing instincts for running an offense (and he IS the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals and the player the Celtics will build around the next 5-10 years).

 

- Kidd on the break not breaking transition defense?

 

You don't need to be ultra-quick to be an effective transition player, you only need average PG speed. What separated Kidd was he would grab his own board, push it, stay UNDER CONTROL, and consistently make the right decision. Not many PG's are a one-man fastbreak off the rebound, and too many PG's force the issue on the fastbreak and cause the team a TO. Because of this, a lot of PG's walk it up the floor, or their coaches will pull back the reigns.

 

Dude? What's the difference? You're still implying strong guards who post up are going to murder him. That's still saying his lack of height "make him play bad defense"... when I'm saying he's gotten stronger this summer, and those guys are not going to push him around as easily.

 

In terms of play style, obviously Kidd has more advantages being able to guard Kobe, T-Mac... Lawson is not going to do that. But he's good enough to guard PGs in this L and causes disruption with his strong, quick arms to go with his quick footwork. Get defensive stops and start the break, isn't it J-Kidd style?

 

I'm not implying stronger guards will murder him...what I'm implying is that Lawson's always going to be at a disadvantage because he's a smaller PG. Whether he is able to eventually overcome this has yet to be seen, but from my experience in watching basketball giving up 3-5 inches and 10+ pounds in the post is a very rare feat to consistently overcome. It can happen, but has yet to be seen. Regardless, his body isn't tailor-made to defend bigger post players, so I fail to see how the Kidd comparison is legit there.

 

And EVERY fastbreak is contingent upon getting a defensive stop, so I guess Lawson is a mini-CP3 too! Kidd's style in particular is to grab his own rebound and push it, something you acknowledged Lawson won't do. Case closed.

 

Are you kidding me? "Kidd has never been predicated on speed"? Are you on crack dude? The New Jersey highlights of Kidd that I remember are him going coast-to-coast beating transitional defense of 3-4-(sometimes)5 guys with his speed and ability to finish around the rim with that effective lay-up. At half-court set he may have not been a good finisher, but I'm talking in terms of pushing the ball on the break and making plays for either his teammates or himself.

 

Kidd had average PG speed in NJ. AVERAGE. You can watch highlights, I watched the games when they happened. He was nowhere near one of the fastest PG's in the league. Yes, he was able to beat most other positional players on the break, but so can most average PG's. What made him different was he grabbed his own board and ran (or made a long outlet pass to an open wing player), which was a nightmare for defenses, and of course his insane court vision and IQ. Because of how good he was on the break, his teammates always ran with him, and that's why it was so effective. He was able to hit open layups, but nothing spectacular or special. He wasn't a guy that relied on quickness. Even after his microfracture surgery he was just as effective on the fastbreak because of his rebounding ability and basketball IQ.

 

You claim Lawson is already better than Kidd ever was at penetrating with the intent to score. In other words, in terms of scoring, Lawson > Kidd in half court sets. But Lawson is adept as to change his intention if the big guy tries to block his shot, he can always change from scoring to dropping a pass to Nene/ KMart for an easy 2. So Lawson is more effective than Kidd at scoring in half court sets, but could also be as effective as Kidd at passing/ facilitating in half court sets. And if Lawson can match Kidd's effectiveness on the break, how can it be that "he will never, ever be as effective."?

 

No. Dribble penetration, as I ALREADY MENTIONED IN MY FIRST POST, is just one aspect to facilitating in the halfcourt set. And just because Lawson can get to the rim better does NOT mean he is able to make better decisions and see certain players open that Kidd can... not even mentioning the actual pass which Kidd was a master at putting spot-on.

 

And who said Lawson can match Kidd's effectiveness on the fastbreak?!? Being faster and better at finishing a layup does NOT equal being a better fastbreak PG.

[Real Deal]

Barbosa > Kidd, because he's fast and stuff.

[Check my Stats]

Andersen is the next mutumbo.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Dude, are you kidding? I don't even know what to say to that, honestly. You're going out on a limb. You might as well say that Lawson has what it takes to be a top five point guard of all-time.

 

By the way, to add to the list of ridiculous predictions for Denver's players...I forgot about the JR Smith/Kobe Bryant comparison you made.

 

In a couple of seasons, man, you'll have two of the best players in the league, I guess, in Lawson and Smith.

 

I didn't make that J.R./ Kobe comparison.

 

 

---

 

 

When a huge part of Kidd's playing style is reliant on his size, it is a major factor in this discussion. We are discussing style, not necessarily effectiveness, and in that Stockton/Magic analogy they played two completely different ways as well.

 

We discussed style... you will see many similarities on the break the way Lawson pushes the ball off a defensive rebound, break the transitional defenses like Kidd back then in New Jersey and be that consistent terror once again the L has rarely seen since Kidd.

 

 

Good luck. Prepare for dissapointment.

 

Because you judge a player's worth by their CURRENT value... you can't see beyond the present, make an analysis based on an observation.

 

Stats don't tell potential, keen observation like mine :glasses: does. You, like many others who use the tangible stats to beef up their smart/ knowledge, just simply don't have the total package. You're lacking the intangibles such as reading potential without STATS, see beyond the present.

 

There'll be no disappointment... and if there is, it will not be because of the lack of effort/ trying or lazy attitude, which I can live with.

 

 

 

I was implying that breaking the 10APG mark is a pretty elite accomplishment. You have to have elite passing ability, and the players that have that tend to be MVP/superstar/franchise caliber players. There are certain exceptions, but Lawson has proven NOTHING to give off the impression that he will accomplish that feat. Rondo is an absolutely elite playmaker with amazing instincts for running an offense (and he IS the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals and the player the Celtics will build around the next 5-10 years).

 

Yet you wouldn't have said these glowing things about Rondo 4 years ago when he was still a rookie, who had no KG and Ray as his teammates. Most, maybe all viewed Rondo as a role player and not one saw him as a future All Star, which is understandable because it was 4 years ago. But Rondo is a further proof that you can't judge a player's worth by his PRESENT accomplishments.

 

I see Lawson as one who could make it to 10apg. He has the right tools and willingness to be an accomplished passer.

 

 

 

You don't need to be ultra-quick to be an effective transition player, you only need average PG speed. What separated Kidd was he would grab his own board, push it, stay UNDER CONTROL, and consistently make the right decision. Not many PG's are a one-man fastbreak off the rebound, and too many PG's force the issue on the fastbreak and cause the team a TO. Because of this, a lot of PG's walk it up the floor, or their coaches will pull back the reigns.

 

Kidd had average PG speed in NJ. AVERAGE. You can watch highlights, I watched the games when they happened. He was nowhere near one of the fastest PG's in the league. Yes, he was able to beat most other positional players on the break, but so can most average PG's. What made him different was he grabbed his own board and ran (or made a long outlet pass to an open wing player), which was a nightmare for defenses, and of course his insane court vision and IQ. Because of how good he was on the break, his teammates always ran with him, and that's why it was so effective. He was able to hit open layups, but nothing spectacular or special. He wasn't a guy that relied on quickness. Even after his microfracture surgery he was just as effective on the fastbreak because of his rebounding ability and basketball IQ.

 

Dude Kidd in his prime in New Jersey WITH THE BALL from end to end was one of the fastest players in NBA, if not the fastest, and if not one of the fastest in NBA history. If you don't think he was fast, and only AVERAGE, your standard is pretty damn high.

 

Not all his fastbreaks are throwing long outlet passes... I remember highlights of him because the Nets were shown on ESPN a lot those days... it's common to see him finish the break by himself from end to end, beating everybody with his SPEED... even those guys who managed to get back on defense had their feet petrified because he was just TOO FAST with the ball on the break.

 

Andre Miller has AVERAGE speed, he can stay UNDER CONTROL, has COURT VISION and PASSING ABILITY most PGs dream about, but I don't see him pulling a coast-to-coast J-Kidd in his prime in NJ fastbreak finish, simply because he is NOT FAST.

 

A big reason why I dubbed Lawson in this thread as a mini J-Kidd is because he's FAST with the ball (much like J-Kidd in New Jersey), not because he's AVERAGE.

 

 

 

I'm not implying stronger guards will murder him...what I'm implying is that Lawson's always going to be at a disadvantage because he's a smaller PG. Whether he is able to eventually overcome this has yet to be seen, but from my experience in watching basketball giving up 3-5 inches and 10+ pounds in the post is a very rare feat to consistently overcome. It can happen, but has yet to be seen. Regardless, his body isn't tailor-made to defend bigger post players, so I fail to see how the Kidd comparison is legit there.

 

And EVERY fastbreak is contingent upon getting a defensive stop, so I guess Lawson is a mini-CP3 too! Kidd's style in particular is to grab his own rebound and push it, something you acknowledged Lawson won't do. Case closed.

 

Then you're speaking from experience, not actually from specific observation of Lawson's game. Like I said, you are among the many of them (including many Nugget fans) who think of Lawson of only speed and speed only. People don't know he plays exceptional defense. He's strong in upper and lower body, he has quick and strong hands, and most importantly he knows positioning and does an exceptional job in staying in front of his man.

 

A fastbreak doesn't need to be initiated by own rebound. Nene or KMart can get a defensive rebound, or a stop, pass to Lawson and he can do his J-Kidd style fastbreak. I've seen it (0:52)

 

 

 

 

No. Dribble penetration, as I ALREADY MENTIONED IN MY FIRST POST, is just one aspect to facilitating in the halfcourt set. And just because Lawson can get to the rim better does NOT mean he is able to make better decisions and see certain players open that Kidd can... not even mentioning the actual pass which Kidd was a master at putting spot-on.

 

And who said Lawson can match Kidd's effectiveness on the fastbreak?!? Being faster and better at finishing a layup does NOT equal being a better fastbreak PG.

 

Being able to penetrate is key, and being able to finish is a bonus. It definitely doesn't hurt the player's passing ability. Since there's so few Ty Lawson's YouTube, I can only find one instance, check the same video I posted above:

 

 

- 1:17 when Lawson penetrated to the paint. Now, Lawson would have finished it by himself, but since Bogut left Nene all alone, Lawson changed and slid to his left and dropped a left bounce pass to Nene. He also dropped the ball in front of Nene so Nene could catch it while moving toward the rim in doing it, making hard for Bogut to recover and contest the shot in time.

 

- 1:36 when he shook and baked 3 Jazz into the air and at the last moment dropped a pass to a streaking KMart... we've seen many many JKidd acrobatic passes like that one where JKidd drew multiple defenders and threw a GREAT pass for a WIDE OPEN EASY bucket for his teammates.

 

It's a special in-the-moment decision making that will serve him well for his career. You will see beginning from TONIGHT, watch Lawesome kill (9:00 PM, EST).