Ranking Historical Individual Play

[Real Deal]

Remove all accomplishments (team accomplishments and championships, media awards, everything in between) and list your top five players in NBA history. Base it on skillset, abilities, and overall play alone.

 

Ex. Kobe no longer has five championships, Russell doesn't have 11, MJ doesn't have five MVP's, etc.

[TheNotoriousBANG]

Lebron James

Michael Jordan

Allen Iverson

 

2 many of these other swigman for 4-5 spots so ill just leave it with that

[Lkr]

Lebron James

Michael Jordan

Allen Iverson

 

2 many of these other swigman for 4-5 spots so ill just leave it with that

AI had some years but he really doesn't have the longevity imo

[Sħãlïq™]

In no order (top of mind):

Michael Jordan

Earvin 'Magic' Johnson

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Wilt Chamberlain

Hakeem Olajuwon

Isiah Thomas

David Robinson

Reggie Miller

Kobe Bryant

LeBron James

 

Sħãlïq's Note:

Great Thread! Gave you a well-deserved +1 (I must've raised your Rep count by 20 over the last few days, B.. ).

Edited August 21, 2012 by Sħãlïq̵'

[TheNotoriousBANG]

AI had some years but he really doesn't have the longevity imo

 

talking skill wise

 

i mean he's a 6'0 skinny kid from VA crossing over everybody and driving the lane on 7 footers

people overlook how legendary AI was, single handidly carried the sixers for years

 

tremendous athlete too at any sport

he was a prized quarterback but one time they played him at cornerback and he had 7 interception......in 1 game :o :o

[Abro]

AI still had pretty good longevity.. Wasnt he averaging close to 30ppg at the age of like 32 or something?

[Real Deal]

AI still had pretty good longevity.. Wasnt he averaging close to 30ppg at the age of like 32 or something?

He turned 31 at the end of his last 30+ PPG season, and it was his 10th season in the league.

[Lemon]

Jordan

Wilt

Kareem

Kobe

Magic

Baylor

Big O

Hakeem

Shaq

Duncan

Bird

 

feel like like I'm missing something

Edited August 21, 2012 by Lemon

[Nitro]

At their peaks, since 1990...

 

Jordan

Shaq

Hakeem

Duncan

LeBron

 

All strong 2-way players at their best who could dominate the game on both sides of the ball. Only player below 28ish PPG was Duncan, but he anchored some of the greatest defenses in NBA history, cleaned the glass at an elite level, was a terrific passer, great post player and always led by example and dignity.

[Abro]

He turned 31 at the end of his last 30+ PPG season, and it was his 10th season in the league.

Okay thanks. But what about after that, cause I couldve swore he was still averaging like 28, 27 which is is still fantastic btw, at like 32, 33 ish.. As a Nugget. Once he got traded, it was like noone respected him at all. Sorry btw never really followed AI when he was in the nba.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Abro

[Nitro]

Okay thanks. But what about after that, cause I couldve swore he was still averaging like 28, 27 which is is still fantastic btw, at like 32, 33 ish.. As a Nugget. Once he got traded, it was like noone respected him at all. Sorry btw never really followed AI when he was in the nba.

 

It's not that he wasn't respected...it's just that in Denver, with Melo, he wasn't the right fit to support a contender. With Melo and him both being so iso oriented, and neither playing much defense, they underachieved for what their potential was based on talent. Once he left Denver, he just didn't have a lot of help and his athleticism started decline a lot.

 

And actually, I believe his last full season with Denver, he had one of his best all-around seasons. Lower turnovers, respectable efficiency, high assists and like 26PPG. It went largely unnoticed, though.

[AboveLegit]

Based on talent alone..

 

Jordan

Shaq

LeBron

Duncan

Magic

Bird

[Check my Stats]

So if we are throwing titles and accomplishments out the window, how come Duncan keeps getting mentioned and KG doesn't? Lets not act like Kevin Garnett in the early 2000's wasn't putting together some of the best individual big men seasons ever, playing with a pretty poor supporting cast mind you. Not to mention could Tim Duncan bring the ball up the floor for your team?!?!?!?

 

To me you have the main 4 (MJ, LeBron, Magic and Shaq, in no order) with a bunch of other guys who you could probably stick into that 5th spot - . I think it is damn near impossible to stick anyone in that 5th spot and not have them look like a step below those 4.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Check my Stats

[Real Deal]

I'm amazed that Kobe is not in this conversation. In his ultimate prime, he had no holes in his game.

 

On the other hand, Magic was not that great of a defensive player, and he couldn't shoot a three to save his life until the final 2-3 years of his career.

[kingfish]

Jordan

Kobe

Kareem

Shaq

Magic

 

Jordan and Kobe are top 2 obviously because they are probably the most unstoppable players the game has seen, especially in their primes. Both Jordan and Kobe had to be doubled 15 feet away from the rim, in their primes (Jordan wasnt as much due to zones being illegal). Kobe from 05-07 was truly unstoppable, the amount of jumpers and fadeaways over double teams was amazing, too bad he had a roster literally full of scrubs, he would have been a much more efficient scorer. Kareem has to be 3rd considering his sky hook which is probably the best go to move ever, it was an unblockable shot and he made it almost every time, and of course he has the most points in history.

 

I put Shaq 4th because in his prime, he was going to dominate you every night no matter what. There was simply nobody who could guard him in the post, he was an extremely efficient scorer and was a great rebounder as well. Magic has to be 5 at least, best passer ever. Duncan and Hakeem just barely missed the top 5.

Edited August 22, 2012 by kingfish

[Real Deal]

In no order...I would mention Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe and Hakeem. That's based on me believing everything that was said about Wilt (because, of course, none of us got to see him in his prime) and assuming he would go off for about 30/15 if he was playing in the 90's or today (instead of his ridiculous scoring and rebounding numbers in the 60's).

 

I have to take Hakeem over Shaq simply because Hakeem was a monster on the defensive end, and that's where Shaq struggled a bit more than he should have. He was absolutely horrible defending the pick and roll, even when he was weighing in at under the 350 he was at in LA...and maybe that was due to laziness, but I can't ignore that.

 

LeBron is very close on this list of five. If he can prove he can hit jumpers all game long, even from outside, with the best defenders in his face all game...then he's most definitely in the five, without a doubt, because that's the only thing I can say LeBron can't do at this point (since he finally developed an excellent post game).

[Nitro]

So if we are throwing titles and accomplishments out the window, how come Duncan keeps getting mentioned and KG doesn't? Lets not act like Kevin Garnett in the early 2000's wasn't putting together some of the best individual big men seasons ever, playing with a pretty poor supporting cast mind you. Not to mention could Tim Duncan bring the ball up the floor for your team?!?!?!?

 

He was never a true #1 option on offense. He wasn't aggressive enough in terms of demanding the ball, trying to take over games and staying more in the post than floating out on the perimeter. Only ONCE did he have a TS% over .539 in the playoffs with the T-Wolves, and only ONCE did he crack 24PPG despite the normally awful supporting cast.

 

Talent wise KG is probably top 5, but when it comes to a final product, I feel Duncan was the slightly better player.

 

I'm amazed that Kobe is not in this conversation. In his ultimate prime, he had no holes in his game.

 

The biggest hole in his game was between his ears.

 

And my issue with taking him over the guys I mentioned is because he's never been a dominant defender while being a #1 option. Had the occasional ability to lock someone down, but he didn't use that ability consistently, and even at his best I don't think he was a better defender than any of the guys I mentioned (maybe Shaq, though I focused on peak play, and for 1-2 seasons Shaq was a dominant defender).

 

If we were talking pure skill, yeah Kobe would be top 5. But there is more to basketball than just skill.

 

LeBron is very close on this list of five. If he can prove he can hit jumpers all game long, even from outside, with the best defenders in his face all game...then he's most definitely in the five, without a doubt, because that's the only thing I can say LeBron can't do at this point (since he finally developed an excellent post game).

 

1) Why does he need that ability? He's one of the only 27-30PPG scorers in NBA history with a TS% of over .600, and he's done that multiple times. He's consistent as hell scoring the ball against pretty much all defenses. Jordan didn't need the ability to hit jumpers all game long through his first 7-8 years in the league, and he was playing at a GOAT level. As a shooter, I'd say LeBron is on the same level as Jordan at that point in his career, and he's better from 3 than Jordan was as well.

 

2) The Dallas series was an abberation. Check the series before where LeBron couldn't sniff the paint against Chicago and was hitting jumper after jumper against Luol Deng, who many here thought could have been DPOY that season. Same thing against Iguodala in the first round that year. Or maybe how he torched Pierce and the Celtics this year with an array of jumpers.

[Real Deal]

The biggest hole in his game was between his ears.

 

And my issue with taking him over the guys I mentioned is because he's never been a dominant defender while being a #1 option. Had the occasional ability to lock someone down, but he didn't use that ability consistently, and even at his best I don't think he was a better defender than any of the guys I mentioned (maybe Shaq, though I focused on peak play, and for 1-2 seasons Shaq was a dominant defender).

 

If we were talking pure skill, yeah Kobe would be top 5. But there is more to basketball than just skill.

If you're going to penalize Kobe for not playing defense all the time, you might as well penalize Shaq for slacking off and getting surgery on company time, being lazy out on the court, and being on the bench late in plenty of games.

 

I don't ever remember Shaq being a dominant defender, either...at least not in Los Angeles. His size made it difficult for slashers to get to the rim, basically a wall down low...but when big men found a way to get him to step a few feet out of the paint (like Duncan would do), Shaq never got back, and he left a gaping hole at the rim. Never, ever came out on the P&R because it would have resulted in the same thing.

 

1) Why does he need that ability? He's one of the only 27-30PPG scorers in NBA history with a TS% of over .600, and he's done that multiple times. He's consistent as hell scoring the ball against pretty much all defenses. Jordan didn't need the ability to hit jumpers all game long through his first 7-8 years in the league, and he was playing at a GOAT level. As a shooter, I'd say LeBron is on the same level as Jordan at that point in his career, and he's better from 3 than Jordan was as well.

 

2) The Dallas series was an abberation. Check the series before where LeBron couldn't sniff the paint against Chicago and was hitting jumper after jumper against Luol Deng, who many here thought could have been DPOY that season. Same thing against Iguodala in the first round that year. Or maybe how he torched Pierce and the Celtics this year with an array of jumpers.

LeBron needs that ability because, unless you simply can't shoot because you're a seven-footer with massive hands (ex. Shaq), you should be expected to have a complete game if you're considered the greatest ever (that's the direction he wants to go, so why not?). What if Magic Johnson was a DPOY in the 80's, and was playing Payton-like defense at the point for most of his career? Does that mean we start talking about him overtaking MJ as the GOAT? I'd consider it.

 

Dallas forced LeBron into jumpshots, and not only that, but they stuck an excellent defender in his face to contest them. Be honest...how many times do you see a Battier sticking a hand in LeBron's face? Very rarely, because if they take one step in, he's blowing them away.

 

If you can use an excellent defensive player at the three, and stick a defensive anchor (and DPOY) in the paint, preventing the drive just a bit more than usual...you present a problem with LeBron, and quickly, we start screaming for his post game. Did we not all do that? It was the key to the Thunder series.

 

Shot well against Boston? In the last few games of that series, may have been most of it, he was shooting poorly. Bayless brought it up on First Take, and the numbers were presented in a later show (Numbers Never Lie).

 

I don't have time to go look up his numbers in the Bulls and Sixers series, but I don't remember him going ballistic with jumpers...and to say that he shoots jumpshots better than Jordan, I don't really know about that. LeBron's mid-range is nothing like MJ's.

 

Would you say he shoots better jumpers than Bryant? If you told me LeBron scored 60 points in a game, I would immediately tell you he was getting to the rim and getting free throws, or in the post. Can't say the same for Kobe, who is probably one of the few guys I've ever seen that can have 50-point games on jumpshots.

 

LeBron is the best player in the NBA now. It's not hard to admit that. He's going to be a top 10 when he retires, and it almost doesn't matter if he wins another championship. However, he's not the complete player, and for the same reason I can't stick Shaq on my list, I can't do it with LeBron...even though he's pretty close...closer than he was in 2011.

[Nitro]

If you're going to penalize Kobe for not playing defense all the time, you might as well penalize Shaq for slacking off and getting surgery on company time, being lazy out on the court, and being on the bench late in plenty of games.

 

I don't ever remember Shaq being a dominant defender, either...at least not in Los Angeles. His size made it difficult for slashers to get to the rim, basically a wall down low...but when big men found a way to get him to step a few feet out of the paint (like Duncan would do), Shaq never got back, and he left a gaping hole at the rim. Never, ever came out on the P&R because it would have resulted in the same thing.

 

I do penalize Shaq for it...and I'd still take him over Kobe. A 30PPG scorer shooting nearly 60% from the field, commanding more attention than any player in NBA history, incredible post passer you could run a championship offense through, snatching 14RPG and at his peak averaging 3 blocks...absolutely dominant. No one, probably not even MJ, impacted the game as much as prime Shaq.

 

And in '99-'00 he was a pretty motivated defender who led the league in DWS and had by far the lowest Drtg of his career.

 

LeBron needs that ability because, unless you simply can't shoot because you're a seven-footer with massive hands (ex. Shaq), you should be expected to have a complete game if you're considered the greatest ever (that's the direction he wants to go, so why not?).

 

LeBron is a SF in a PF's body with attributes of a PG/SG, to go along with unreal athleticism. Dude doesn't need to be a lights-out shooter, and his career has proved that.

 

Dallas forced LeBron into jumpshots, and not only that, but they stuck an excellent defender in his face to contest them. Be honest...how many times do you see a Battier sticking a hand in LeBron's face? Very rarely, because if they take one step in, he's blowing them away.

 

If you can use an excellent defensive player at the three, and stick a defensive anchor (and DPOY) in the paint, preventing the drive just a bit more than usual...you present a problem with LeBron, and quickly, we start screaming for his post game. Did we not all do that? It was the key to the Thunder series.

 

So, in order to limit LeBron, you need to stick an excellent individual defender on him and have a DPOY backing him up, anchoring the defense...you don't say?

 

Dallas' defense didn't force LeBron into anything he hadn't seen before. LeBron completely mind[expletive]ed himself out of that series. Not saying he could have dropped 30PPG on ridiculous efficiency, but everything he did was incredibly awkward and an abberation from the rest of his career, where he's faced better defenses than Dallas had. I do not look at that series as a measure of what he can and cannot do. Since '10, he has lost much of his explosive first step, so despite popular belief he doesn't blow by defenders at will anymore. That is why a post game was necessary. He could shoot as many jumpers as, say, Kobe, and do it at moderate efficiency, but instead he developed that post game and has been more efficient than ever before.

 

Shot well against Boston? In the last few games of that series, may have been most of it, he was shooting poorly. Bayless brought it up on First Take, and the numbers were presented in a later show (Numbers Never Lie).

 

He shot over 48% 4x that series, and dipped under 42% only 1x. That's not shooting poorly, and that's certainly not shooting poorly most of the series.

 

Also, don't forget how crazy he was with his jumpshot in game 6. One of the greatest playoff shooting barrages in NBA history.

 

I don't have time to go look up his numbers in the Bulls and Sixers series, but I don't remember him going ballistic with jumpers...and to say that he shoots jumpshots better than Jordan, I don't really know about that. LeBron's mid-range is nothing like MJ's.

 

I can't find the numbers as far as his jumpshooting percentage goes, but I do know Philly and Chicago kept his paint attempts to a minimum, and he still scored very well against both teams. Against Philly he also completely shut Iguodala down as well.

 

I said he shoots better than young, first 7-8 years Jordan. Much greater range than Jordan had when he was dropping 37PPG. And when Jordan was statistically scoring at his best, I wouldn't say he had a better midrange game than LeBron has now, either. That didn't really develop until about his 2nd championship, and by the 3rd championship he was elite there and the best all-around scorer he ever was.

 

Would you say he shoots better jumpers than Bryant? If you told me LeBron scored 60 points in a game, I would immediately tell you he was getting to the rim and getting free throws, or in the post. Can't say the same for Kobe, who is probably one of the few guys I've ever seen that can have 50-point games on jumpshots.

 

He's not a better jumpshooter than Kobe, but because of shot selection he HAS shot it at better efficiency the last few seasons than Kobe has (according to 82games.com).

 

And don't make me pullup all the 40-50pt games LeBron has had while doing it nearly all on the perimeter.

 

However, he's not the complete player, and for the same reason I can't stick Shaq on my list, I can't do it with LeBron...even though he's pretty close...closer than he was in 2011.

 

LeBron is the model of being a complete player. He's one of the most efficienct high-volume scorers in NBA history, probably the best passing SF of all-time, arguably best rebounding SF of all-time, one of the best defenders in the league, and he can play and defend up to 5 positions.

 

It's not like he's Rajon Rondo with the jumper...he's become a very, very solid jumpshooter, and does pretty much everything else on the basketball court at an exceptional level. And most importantly, he does it ALL at the same time. Kobe and Shaq, much of their primes, put very little effort on the defensive side of the ball. Duncan rarely was a big volume scorer, and even at his best wasn't as overall efficient as LeBron. LeBron CONSISTENTLY does EVERYTHING, and does it amazingly well. Hakeem and MJ, the other 2 I listed from the '90's-on, were the only other two who were in LeBron's boat when it came to being consistently dominant all-around players.

 

To say he's not the complete player and then prop up Kobe is ridiculous.

[NomarFachix]

I'm amazed that Kobe is not in this conversation. In his ultimate prime, he had no holes in his game.

he gave up 40+ to ray allen in a 4 game sweep

[Real Deal]

I put this on my life, I'm almost about to laugh at the way you're making LeBron out to, basically, be the greatest player of all-time. Hands down, in fact...because everything you have said, pointed to, etc...it has trumped Mike already, because LeBron has done all of this against zone defenses, which are five times harder to play against than your typical hand-checking, physical defender.

 

I was waiting for someone to do it after he won his first championship, but it didn't happen. You might as well go ahead and call LeBron the greatest player to ever play, no joke...because your last post pretty much tells me he would have 6+ championships, 5+ MVP's, a DPOY (or more), and scoring titles galore if he had Phil, Pippen, and a plethora of shooters camping around the perimeter.

 

And saying Kobe is the complete player, and LeBron isn't, is justified because, once again, you and I both know LeBron is not the jumpshooter that Bryant (or MJ) have been over their careers, and he doesn't have the range when you stick someone in his face most of the game. He shot over 48% against Boston? That's not on jumpers, that's overall. I'm really tempted to go see all of his shot charts, but I don't have time to mess with it right now. In the game or two that he hit plenty of jumpers, they were over Bass and not defended the way they should have been (Bass didn't even contest well).

 

This thing about Kobe not playing defense is kind of annoying, also. You keep giving me DWS and DRtg...so why not compare to, say, Gary Payton? We know he has been an incredible defender most of his career, yet, his numbers are pretty similar throughout (and even Kobe had a better season than Payton AND Jordan (supposedly) back in 2000, with a 98 DRtg).

 

Looks like Derrick Rose has been one of the best defensive players in the league over the last two seasons, also (DRtg)...which is funny to me, because I know that's dead wrong.

 

These are reasons why I started to slow down when it came to feeding my posts a bunch of stats. If I did, I'd be telling you that Kobe was as good of a defender as Payton, that Kevin Love is a franchise player, and that LeBron James is the greatest player since Wilt Chamberlain.

[Nitro]

I put this on my life, I'm almost about to laugh at the way you're making LeBron out to, basically, be the greatest player of all-time. Hands down, in fact...because everything you have said, pointed to, etc...it has trumped Mike already, because LeBron has done all of this against zone defenses, which are five times harder to play against than your typical hand-checking, physical defender.

 

I was waiting for someone to do it after he won his first championship, but it didn't happen. You might as well go ahead and call LeBron the greatest player to ever play, no joke...because your last post pretty much tells me he would have 6+ championships, 5+ MVP's, a DPOY (or more), and scoring titles galore if he had Phil, Pippen, and a plethora of shooters camping around the perimeter.

 

MJ did almost everything LeBron does, and did it better. Pretty much every statistical category, basic or advanced, MJ still trumped LeBron. He scored more and slightly more efficiently than LeBron during his peak, had seasons up near 8APG, seasons up near 8RPG, was a much better man-to-man defender who had seasons with more steals AND blocks, and in his prime had a better midrange game.

 

However, it isn't too far off, honestly. That is how good LeBron has become. There is a reason you got guys like Scottie Pippen and Boheim saying LeBron could be the greatest player they have ever seen. He can play 5 positions, score 30PPG on ridiculous efficiency, is an incredible passer, rebounder, and defender. He has proven he can lead a team to a championship. Once he got that post games and got over the his self-mind[expletive]ing in pressure situations, it was a wrap.

 

And yes, now we have zone defenses, but perimeter handchecking and no defensive 3 second rule in a league with Hakeem, young Shaq, Zo, Deke, Ewing and Robinson isn't nothing to sneeze at, either.

 

And saying Kobe is the complete player, and LeBron isn't, is justified because, once again, you and I both know LeBron is not the jumpshooter that Bryant (or MJ) have been over their careers, and he doesn't have the range when you stick someone in his face most of the game. He shot over 48% against Boston? That's not on jumpers, that's overall. I'm really tempted to go see all of his shot charts, but I don't have time to mess with it right now. In the game or two that he hit plenty of jumpers, they were over Bass and not defended the way they should have been (Bass didn't even contest well).

 

Once again, last season he DID shoot jumpers more efficiently than Kobe...about 5% EFG better over the course of the season. He shot better from 3 by 3% as well. That trend has been going on for a few years, now. And he HAS won games with his jumper, and HAS had big series' by living mostly on the perimeter. So, to make it seem like it's such a big disadvantage is ridiculous.

 

Not saying he is better than Kobe with the jumper, but the point is LeBron is more than capable with it. It is not a weakness anymore. It's not one of his strongest attributes, but he can burn you more often than not from the perimeter.

 

You keep making the point that he is the more complete SCORER, not PLAYER. Outside of scoring, where is Kobe more complete? LeBron is hands-down the more complete player basically everywhere else.

 

This thing about Kobe not playing defense is kind of annoying, also. You keep giving me DWS and DRtg...so why not compare to, say, Gary Payton? We know he has been an incredible defender most of his career, yet, his numbers are pretty similar throughout (and even Kobe had a better season than Payton AND Jordan (supposedly) back in 2000, with a 98 DRtg).

 

There is a thread on RealGM in the stat section titled, "Kobe is the most overrated defensive player imaginable." If you want in-depth stats that go beyond those two ratings (which are baselined based on overall team performance), go there.

 

I don't need stats to tell me what my eyes have seen the last 8-9 seasons anyway. Kobe doesn't bring it every night defensively, and most nights he's average. Even at his best, he never made the impact LeBron does on a nightly basis defensively. LeBron guards up to 5 positions, is much smarter with his man defense off-ball, and is a better help defender. He does this consistently, most importantly. Kobe was a better man defender against primarily iso players at his peak. That's all peak Kobe has on LeBron defensively.

 

Looks like Derrick Rose has been one of the best defensive players in the league over the last two seasons, also (DRtg)...which is funny to me, because I know that's dead wrong.

 

 

Once again, it is largely based on the team you play for, so it's hard to compare team to team, because you'll have bench warmers on defensive giants that have strong Drtg's. However, with Shaq that one year, he also led the entire league in DWS, which is ALWAYS a sign that you are making a big impact on the defensive end.

 

That opinion is based off what I saw from video of Shaq during that season and other Laker fans, who told me that was the one season he brought it defensively.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

I'm not even going to reply to the Jordan/LeBron stuff, because deep down, you know he's not close, unless you didn't watch Jordan with your own two eyes.

 

Once again, last season he DID shoot jumpers more efficiently than Kobe...about 5% EFG better over the course of the season. He shot better from 3 by 3% as well. That trend has been going on for a few years, now. And he HAS won games with his jumper, and HAS had big series' by living mostly on the perimeter. So, to make it seem like it's such a big disadvantage is ridiculous.

Two seasons, no more than that...and why are we talking about how Kobe shoots jumpers now? Kobe just came off a horrible shooting percentage (age is finally getting to him), and 2010-11 was injury-ridden. It only makes sense that LeBron's jumpshot percentage improved with Wade as his teammate, anyway.

 

Let's go ahead and compare today's Tim Duncan to Andrew Bynum, I guess.

 

My point stands. LeBron can hit open jumpers, but in games where a defensive-minded player isn't scared shitless of his drive to the rim (or he just gives him the step), LeBron struggles.

 

Also, LeBron defends three positions. Pau Gasol is a center that plays like a small forward, so when he's out there muscling Gasol for two plays, that doesn't mean he's defending centers. He also gets toasted by PG's more often than not. I didn't see his ass move over and defend Rondo back in May/June, when Rondo decided to average 21/7/11 on nearly 50% FG, and going apeshit for 40+ in Game 2. He can take the call in one regular season game, but if he's not going to do it when Mario Chalmers, a gimpy Dwyane Wade, and Norris Cole are getting obliterated, then he doesn't defend the position well enough to be significant.

 

Kobe took Russell Westbrook for the rest of the LA/OKC series a few years back, when Fisher was a matador, and Westbrook didn't hit 40% again. He took LeBron in January and February of 2009, and held him to two bad games, despite destroying his finger in one of those. Kobe has defended three positions for most of his career.

 

By the way...that article you're referring to (posted on RealGM) is hilarious. It's the +/- stats, huh? Well, it also breaks down the fact that Wade is also extremely overrated on the defensive end, something you would argue against until your eyes bleed. But, yeah...those +/- stats...

 

It really doesn't matter to me, anyway...don't even know why I brought Kobe up. Now that he's not cremating teams like he used to, everyone is opening up Basketball Reference again...so it's whatever.

[JYD]

I don't understand how you can just throw away accomplishments and then rank guys? What is the basis for determining a list? Lol

 

If we are talking about guys who never won or haven't won a whole lot as far as team success, Patrick Ewing I know is up there on the list. Great player, but never won a ring (mainly because of Jordan) so he never gets listed with the Duncan's and Garnett's ,etc..

[Flash]

In terms of sheer talent and impact on the court I think I'd put LeBron ahead of Kobe as well. The fact that this guy guards 5 positions efficiently. He's guarded guys like Pau Gasol effectively and has completely taken a guy like Derrick Rose out of the game in crunch time FOR AN ENTIRE SERIES. Not just that but look at the teams he's led to success. He got drafted at 18 and led that team from day 1 to places that franchise had never been before. Not even MJ can say that he did that right off the bat in his career. He got to the Finals at 22 as only decent player on that team. Albeit the East was weak and he got swept, thats a hell of an accomplishment. LBJ's impact on a game is IMO felt more ways that Kobe's.

 

Is Kobe the better shooter? Definitely IMO but like Nitro said LBJ's jumper isn't necessarily a weakness anymore and his post game is only going to get better.

 

Is he at Jordan yet? Absolutely not. But to dismiss the possibility entirely IMO is discounting just how good this guy is.