Would you rather have Artest or Ariza?

[Flight]

If I'm trying to win right now, this season, last shot at a title, then Artesticle. But if I want to win in 2 or 3 years, or if I'm rebuilding, Ariza is the way to go.

 

 

Ariza does the little things that Artest did in his prime well, and now does in a slightly-lesser role. He plays good man D, but someone said he's going to hustle more than Ariza. I disagree. He might pull the Shaq routine and play well the first month when the team's new and exciting, but for a lot of the season I think he'll be rather lazy. I just don't see him being the same energy guy as Ariza.

 

 

Give me Ariza if I'm not he Spurs, Celtics, or maybe the Lakers. LA has a shot at a few more titles in the future, but this team's core (which is fairly young for a championship contender) might not stick together for much longer.

[The Artesticle]

 

Give me Ariza if I'm not he Spurs, Celtics, or maybe the Lakers. LA has a shot at a few more titles in the future, but this team's core (which is fairly young for a championship contender) might not stick together for much longer.

Yes they will, we have a good 4-5 year window with Kobe-Drew-Pau-Ron-LO (if he resigns).

[kingfish]

If I'm trying to win right now, this season, last shot at a title, then Artesticle. But if I want to win in 2 or 3 years, or if I'm rebuilding, Ariza is the way to go.

 

 

Ariza does the little things that Artest did in his prime well, and now does in a slightly-lesser role. He plays good man D, but someone said he's going to hustle more than Ariza. I disagree. He might pull the Shaq routine and play well the first month when the team's new and exciting, but for a lot of the season I think he'll be rather lazy. I just don't see him being the same energy guy as Ariza.

 

 

Give me Ariza if I'm not he Spurs, Celtics, or maybe the Lakers. LA has a shot at a few more titles in the future, but this team's core (which is fairly young for a championship contender) might not stick together for much longer.

Kobe is 30, could play at a very elite level until his mid 30s easily. Pau is 28, in his prime and could play at a all star level until about 32, considering hes a 7 footer logging heavy minutes. Bynum is 21, hasnt even had a full season yet, shown he can be scary good when healthy, not even close to his prime. Still have Farmar and Brown who are young, but more then capable of filling in for Fisher when hes gone. Artest is only 29. Odom is 29. I think theres at least 5 more years of championship contention, barring injuries.

[Flight]

Well, Bynum's really had a shaky career. 2 seasons ago we all thought he was the Shaq replacement, now I don't know. Injuries have hurt him and even when he's healthy I don't know if he's a championship-worthy starter. LO is gone I think, and even if he come back he won't last 5 more years I don't think. He'll retire soon IMO, maybe 3 years from now. idk what Pau's contract looks like, but if he can stay and Kobe stays like he said he will, those 2 alone can get them to the playoffs year in and year out. They just can't win it on their own. Artest won't be a very successful player in 4 or 5 years I don't think. Solid role player yes, but not a dominant defender and B level scorer.

 

 

Who's going to play the point? Farmar is not the next whoever he's been compared to. He makes nice passes here and there, he's a decent scorer and a pretty good athlete, but he's not really Derek Fisher. Nor is he as clutch.

 

 

This team is losing shooters, and Morrison isn't the answer off the bench.

[Flight]

Oh, and do you guys think that this team will all stay together? It seems like everyone assumes nobody's going to want to leave, or have an injury and require a major trade to shake things up. To think 5 years from now this team is exactly the same would be ignorant.

[Vital24]

without a doubt its artest.. hes a better player than ariza in almost every category if not all of them

[The Artesticle]

Oh, and do you guys think that this team will all stay together? It seems like everyone assumes nobody's going to want to leave, or have an injury and require a major trade to shake things up. To think 5 years from now this team is exactly the same would be ignorant.

Kobe's gonna be locked up.

 

Pau's gonna be locked up.

 

Drew is already locked up. Same with Ron.

 

I don't see LO leaving anywhere. Of course the team isn't going to be the same in 5 years. But most of the key players will stay with the Lakers. Same thing would've happened even if we signed Trevor.

[The Artesticle]

Who's going to play the point? Farmar is not the next whoever he's been compared to. He makes nice passes here and there, he's a decent scorer and a pretty good athlete, but he's not really Derek Fisher. Nor is he as clutch.

 

 

This team is losing shooters, and Morrison isn't the answer off the bench.

What shooter have we lost? Vladrad? Of course Farmar isn't the answer at point. That's why you look to upgrade with MLE. Next offseason, we have Fisher, Morrison, and Farmar's contract coming off the books. That's nearly 15 million dollars whiped off the slate. We can use the MLE to sign a starting caliber point guard and upgrade.

[ChosenOne]

I think Ariza is a better fit in Houston right now because if Yao is gone for the year and possibly for the rest of his life we have to go young because our chances of getting any where go down the drain, go young and restart the rebuilding process.

Edited July 4, 2009 by ChosenOne

[Flight]

What shooter have we lost? Vladrad? Of course Farmar isn't the answer at point. That's why you look to upgrade with MLE. Next offseason, we have Fisher, Morrison, and Farmar's contract coming off the books. That's nearly 15 million dollars whiped off the slate. We can use the MLE to sign a starting caliber point guard and upgrade.

What shooters do you have? Artest has proven he can't hit the 3. Vlad was a shooter, yeah. Brown isn't out there as a starter getting minutes, and if he is then there's a problem. He's not ready to be a starter. Fisher's not going to play forever, and when he comes off the books LA is still over the cap I assume? I don't see how though, if 3 guys come off the books and you're still over, with you guys being enough under to get Ron. If you're under the cap you can't use MLE, and if you're over what do you think MLE's going to do, lock someone up? You get a year, then the same problem occurs. Besides, who's going to play for MLE that's good enough to lead a team to a title?

 

 

This team isn't staying together for 5 years. Fisher's going to be gone, someone will fill his shoes but it won't be the same. Kobe's not going to get much better, he'll start to decline in a few years. Not a lot, but it will start to happen. Pau might be 28 but he's been playing pro for a while and being a big man he's not going to be able to keep playing a lot of minutes for 5 more seasons. Andrew is, like I said, injury prone. He's also unproven, no matter what you say. He showed a nice 1-2 months in 2007-2008, but that's all. This year he disappeared. He folded in crunch time. What the hell did he do in the playoffs? Shannon's not a PG, he's a shooting guard in a point guard's body. I like Shannon, but I'll be the first to admit Jordan is a much better player right now. He's gone after this season, like you said. Kobe opting out just to get a new contract is not going to help this team either, so don't think he's all about the team. It's nice to see some loyalty, and Kobe's shown a lot of it, but money talks. Who's to say he doesn't end up moving somewhere if a team with a ton of cap makes a nice offer.

 

 

I don't even know what this has to do with Ariza anymore, but my point is LA is not a shoe-in for the same team we saw this season year-in and year-out. I think for any team other than the Celtics or Spurs, two aging teams that really only have 2-3 more championship seasons left before having to take a step back again, Ariza might be a better choice. I know Ron's the better player right now, but give it another season and they might be close to equal, another one beyond that and Ariza's a legitimate 15 points per game guy, throwing in 3 steals (Yeah, 3 steals. He might lead the league given starter minutes.) Artest will start to decline. He'll create a gaping hole at SF after his decline, and who's going to fill it in? He's already too slow to guard LeBron effectively outside, and not going to be strong enough to guard LeBron inside without help. When that help comes, King James will have an open man, and Mo Williams, Delonte West, or even Shaq will likely have a high percentage shot. Leave him man to man, and LeBron's going to drop 50.

 

 

When the hole at SF arises, Cleveland's going to have a field day with LA. Put Kobe on him, why not, but guess who else is getting older? Being a great defender is nice, but LeBron is so strong (Stephen A. Smith said he was 273 pounds in January or February, and he's likely put on a few more pounds since) that he just can't be stopped from a hand in his face.

 

 

Give me Ariza.

[The Artesticle]

What shooters do you have? Artest has proven he can't hit the 3. Vlad was a shooter, yeah. Brown isn't out there as a starter getting minutes, and if he is then there's a problem. He's not ready to be a starter. Fisher's not going to play forever, and when he comes off the books LA is still over the cap I assume? I don't see how though, if 3 guys come off the books and you're still over, with you guys being enough under to get Ron. If you're under the cap you can't use MLE, and if you're over what do you think MLE's going to do, lock someone up? You get a year, then the same problem occurs. Besides, who's going to play for MLE that's good enough to lead a team to a title?

 

Artest has proven he can’t hit the three? When? He shot 40% from three last year. Compare that to Trevor who shot 32% (with Kobe and Pau, and without opposing defenses keying into him like Ron), or D-Fish, who shot 39.7%. Do you think Fisher is a good three point shooter? Ron’s percentage is only going to go up with Kobe and Pau commanding all the attention.

 

What’s the complaining with MLE, money, and point guards? Of course nobody who signs for MLE is going to lead us to the championship. You sign role players to MLE deals, players like Kobe lead teams to championships. We won the ship last year with Derek, we won before with guys like Derek, Shaw, and Harper. None of whom are star players, or anywhere close when they were with LA. Do you even know how the triangle functions? The ball moves through Kobe. That’s why guys like Payton are not a good fit for us. That’s why Jason Kidd isn’t a good fit for us. We don’t need a traditional point guard, just somebody who can hit open shots and play some defense. Seriously, what’s your point? We can lock someone up with the MLE just fine. We just DID with Ron Artest, in case you forgot.

 

This team isn't staying together for 5 years. Fisher's going to be gone, someone will fill his shoes but it won't be the same. Kobe's not going to get much better, he'll start to decline in a few years. Not a lot, but it will start to happen. Pau might be 28 but he's been playing pro for a while and being a big man he's not going to be able to keep playing a lot of minutes for 5 more seasons. Andrew is, like I said, injury prone. He's also unproven, no matter what you say. He showed a nice 1-2 months in 2007-2008, but that's all. This year he disappeared. He folded in crunch time. What the hell did he do in the playoffs? Shannon's not a PG, he's a shooting guard in a point guard's body. I like Shannon, but I'll be the first to admit Jordan is a much better player right now. He's gone after this season, like you said. Kobe opting out just to get a new contract is not going to help this team either, so don't think he's all about the team. It's nice to see some loyalty, and Kobe's shown a lot of it, but money talks. Who's to say he doesn't end up moving somewhere if a team with a ton of cap makes a nice offer.

Of course Fish is gone. He’s old, and we’re gonna get an upgrade with the MLE.

 

“someone will fill his shoes but it won't be the same”

 

Won’t be the same? I hope they won’t be the same, with the MLE, we can get an upgrade. Or if we want, we can deal Sasha’s expiring next year for a team looking to save money, and land a PG. Derek is far from a star, or key player. He hit clutch shots in the playoffs, but for the majority of the postseason, he was horrible. Ask any knowledgeable Laker fan, or NBA fan in general, and they will tell you Derek is among the lower rank of starting point guards in the league. Of course Derek won’t be here forever, nor do we need him to be. On most teams he is a backup point anyways.

 

And Jordan is not a better player than Shannon. How many games have you watched this year? How many good games has he had all year? 3? 4? Out of an 82 game season, plus postseason? He shot 39% from the field this year, 34% from three, and 58% from free throws. That’s absolutely horrible. Not to mention he can’t play a lick of defense, nor make simple post entry passes. Shannon is a much better player than Jordan. Only reason why he didn’t get minutes was because he was unfamiliar with the triangle. I fully expect that to change after training camp. And no, I’m not the only one with this opinion. Laker fans have been complaining about Derek and Jordan all season, the management has taken note as well. Which is why they tried to practically give away Jordan to the Rockets in a trade, but were rejected. Shannon may not be a traditional point guard, but you don’t need to be one to play in the triangle. He will do just fine.

And as for Drew. I agree he hasn’t proven much. He has to stay healthy before we start proclaiming an allstar. But the talent is there, he’s still young, only 22 years old. Don’t even bring up his postseason performance as “choking.” This was the first postseason experience of his NBA career. He wasn’t fully healed from his injury yet and was playing hurt. He’ll get better as he gains more experience. Furthermore, all this is moot anyways, because we won the ring despite Drew’s deficiencies.

 

I don't even know what this has to do with Ariza anymore, but my point is LA is not a shoe-in for the same team we saw this season year-in and year-out. I think for any team other than the Celtics or Spurs, two aging teams that really only have 2-3 more championship seasons left before having to take a step back again, Ariza might be a better choice. I know Ron's the better player right now, but give it another season and they might be close to equal, another one beyond that and Ariza's a legitimate 15 points per game guy, throwing in 3 steals (Yeah, 3 steals. He might lead the league given starter minutes.) Artest will start to decline. He'll create a gaping hole at SF after his decline, and who's going to fill it in? He's already too slow to guard LeBron effectively outside, and not going to be strong enough to guard LeBron inside without help. When that help comes, King James will have an open man, and Mo Williams, Delonte West, or even Shaq will likely have a high percentage shot. Leave him man to man, and LeBron's going to drop 50.

Artest is 29. He doesn’t rely on athleticism to play his game. Paul Pierce is practically 32. You really think, that in the next two years, Pierce’s game will drop so dramatically that it’ll hinder the Celtic’s chances to compete? And don’t even compare us to Boston, or San Antonio. KG is 33, Ray Allen is 34, Paul Pierce is 31. Kobe is 30, just coming off of and MVP type season, Pau is 29, Artest is 29, and LO is 29. That’s basically our core without Drew. So I guess, then based off of your logic, Boston will be a retirement home in the next year or so right? Give me a break. Lakers have the pieces to compete for the next 4-5 years with this current core. Nobody’s game is just going to determinate overnight. Especially with the talent on this team, guys like Kobe no longer need to exert as much energy, so it will prolong his career. Kobe is far from done.

 

When the hole at SF arises, Cleveland's going to have a field day with LA. Put Kobe on him, why not, but guess who else is getting older? Being a great defender is nice, but LeBron is so strong (Stephen A. Smith said he was 273 pounds in January or February, and he's likely put on a few more pounds since) that he just can't be stopped from a hand in his face.

What hole at SF? We got Ron Artest, so stop complaining. Guess how well Lebron shot against Houston this year? He was 14-44, which is 31%. Ron didn’t do everything, but obviously he had a part. And saying that we cannot stop Lebron is riciculous. Who can stop Lebron? That's just like being another fan and complaining that their SGs cannot stop Kobe. The complaint makes absolutely no sense. There's a reason why many proclaim Lebron to be the best player in the league. There's a reason why many proclaim Kobe to be the best player in the league. Best players in the league are difficult to stop, otherwise they wouldn't be given that title.

 

Give me Ariza.

Ariza is a role player, who only played well because he fit the system, and benefited from Kobe/Pau. Ariza has chronic foot problems, which was well documented when we traded for him from Orlando. Ariza couldn’t shoot to save his life until this year, when he “magically” showed up. Just like Luke and Sasha in their contract years. Ariza was the same guy who couldn’t match up with Paul Pierce, or Lebron James, and we had to put Luke Walton in his place, who ended up doing a better job.

 

Seriously, stop whining. Half your arguments make absolutely no sense.

Edited July 4, 2009 by phiLA

[Flight]

Ariza is a role player, who only played well because he fit the system, and benefited from Kobe/Pau.

 

Seriously, stop whining. Half your arguments make absolutely no sense.

I don't feel like writing another long post, but you pretty much summed it up.

 

 

 

The ball moves through Kobe in the triangle, like you said. Well, it also moves through whoever gets it. Did you see Artest last year? He shoots [expletive]ty shots. Ariza was smart. And with the whole percentage thing, look at the postseason, in the crunch time when it counts. That's what next year will be like for both. Ariza had a bad regular season average, but look at his growth from game 1 to the Finals.

 

I'm not whining, I'm happy. I like the Rockets a hell of a lot more than LA, and Ariza was my favorite Laker (Shannon being second favorite and the only other guy I like, who might be going elsewhere). I'm stoked that Houston lost its main negative-impact player, and even more excited that they got Ariza.

 

I don't really seem to agree with your arguments either, so we're even right?

 

Artest is talented beyond Ariza's current state, but he won't fit. Quote me on that, check back here next February and see if LA's trying to dump him off to some poor team.

[Force]

Artest is talented beyond Ariza's current state, but he won't fit. Quote me on that, check back here next February and see if LA's trying to dump him off to some poor team.

I'm gunna try and pull a ECN and PM myself this quote..

 

I have no doubts that Artest will fit into our team's system, with Phil, and Kobe guiding him. To him, its not about the money anymore, its about winning, and I'm pretty damn sure he'll do whats necessary to fulfil his duties on this team to do so.

[Flight]

Aight, good luck with the PM system.

 

I just don't see it panning out. Sacramento didn't work, he said he cleaned himself up. Houston didn't work. Why would LA? Just cause he wants Kobe to have another 'by himself?'

 

 

 

 

For the people that said Kobe got a ring last year by himself they're crazy. LA has one of the best teams in the league, nobody can deny that. So many strong pieces.

[The Artesticle]

The ball moves through Kobe in the triangle, like you said. Well, it also moves through whoever gets it. Did you see Artest last year? He shoots [expletive]ty shots. Ariza was smart. And with the whole percentage thing, look at the postseason, in the crunch time when it counts. That's what next year will be like for both. Ariza had a bad regular season average, but look at his growth from game 1 to the Finals.

Game 1 to the Finals doesn’t mean anything. Trevor is a streaky shooter. He shot similarly early on in the season at 3, and then turned ice cold, which is evident in his percentage. Ron shoots 40% from 3 without having superstars like Kobe and Pau take pressure off of him. He shot 40% from 3 as one of the key options on the Houston Rockets. On the Lakers, we’ll have multiple weapons, and teams won’t be able to hone in on him on defense. So technically, he’ll be even better shooting 3’s, because he won’t have to be as worried about the opposing team’s defense.

 

Ron will fit in just fine in LA. People though KG/Ray Ray/Pierce couldn’t co-exist in Boston because there wouldn’t be enough shot attempts to go through all three. People had questions that Pau could co-exist with Kobe since Kobe apparently dominates the ball all game long. Both were false. I don’t see why this will be any different. Ron and Kobe are great friends. Ron and Lamar have known each other since they were kids, and both are great friends as well. Ron respects Phil Jackson (who controlled Rodman in the past), respects the organization, and most importantly, he wants to be here. He’s wanted to play in LA and with Kobe ever since Boston beat us in the Finals, maybe even sooner. Furthermore, he sat down with Jerry and Phil for dinner, I believe, and obviously they talked things out. Jerry Buss is the most successful owner in the NBA, Phil is one of the most successful coaches. They sat down and talked over his role with the team. Obviously Ron knows his role in the offense won’t mean him dominating the ball like he did in Houston, otherwise he wouldn’t have signed here. Obviously two of the best basketball minds in the game feel comfortable with him in LA, which is why they signed him. I’ll take their opinions over yours. Both know what it takes to win championships, and both are good evaluators of talent. I’m not worried at all.

 

I'm not whining, I'm happy. I like the Rockets a hell of a lot more than LA, and Ariza was my favorite Laker (Shannon being second favorite and the only other guy I like, who might be going elsewhere). I'm stoked that Houston lost its main negative-impact player, and even more excited that they got Ariza.

Good for you. Have fun watching Trevor in Houston then, hope his foot doesn’t act up. Hope he isn’t another contract year player. Good luck to Trevor as well, he no longer has an offense, or players like Kobe/Pau to take pressure off of him and create him shots. No Yao, no T-Mac. We’ll see how well he succeeds without superstars taking pressure off of him, when he can barely dribble the ball up court.

 

I don't really seem to agree with your arguments either, so we're even right?

Doesn’t matter if you agree or not. I don’t care if you want Ariza over Artest, I admit I’ll miss Ariza too. But when you bring up crap like Artest is not a good 3 point shooter, and that he has proven that (he has proven the exact opposite), when you bring up ideas like a MLE player leading up to a championship, ideas like being unable to stop one of the best basketball players in the world is something the team should be ashamed about, ideas that Jordan is a better player than Shannon Brown (when mostly all the fans, and management disagree about), and start whining that our team is too old to compete, then I will question you, because you make absolutely no sense.

 

Artest is talented beyond Ariza's current state, but he won't fit. Quote me on that, check back here next February and see if LA's trying to dump him off to some poor team.

No problem. Too bad we won’t. So I guess Kobe is wrong. Lamar is wrong. Mitch is wrong. Phil is wrong. And Jerry Buss is wrong, all at the same time, huh? Sorry but I’ll trust their opinions over yours.

Edited July 4, 2009 by phiLA

[kingfish]

People acting like Artest doesnt know his role you really think hes going to be forcing shots on the Lakers, I dont think so. He didnt come here to get his he came here to finally win a championship, why do you think he took a pay cut. Those thinking that Artest wont listen to Phil or Kobe are delusional, especially cause they already talked about it.

[The Artesticle]

People acting like Artest doesnt know his role you really think hes going to be forcing shots on the Lakers, I dont think so. He didnt come here to get his he came here to finally win a championship, why do you think he took a pay cut. Those thinking that Artest wont listen to Phil or Kobe are delusional, especially cause they already talked about it.

Some people think they know more about basketball than Phil Jackson, the winningest coach in NBA history, and Jerry Buss, the most successful owner in NBA history. Not to mention apparently they think they know what it's like to play on the court with Ron and what his role will be, and how he will act, when Kobe and Lamar have known him for years, and are personal friends.

 

When Jerry okays the deal. When Phil Jackson okays the deal. And when the two leaders, who know Ron personally, okays the deal. I'm okay with the deal as well. People can keep hating and whining, just like apparently we were too soft to win a championship last year. Or break the Houston Rocket curse (ROFL what a crappy curse). Maybe we'll prove them wrong again? Won't surprise me since we do it all the time.

[Erick Blasco]

Artest overhandles a bit, but he's not this black hole shooter that's going to ruin the triangle. He genuinely tries to pass and get teammates involved. Sometimes though he tries to do too much himself, both shooting and creating, but in the case of last year, I looked at that as a sign of him being asked to be a main facilitator when he really isn't. He's not that good of a passer.

 

When his feet are set, he's a pretty good jump shooter. When he's asked to create his own offense, he gets spotty.

 

He plays off the ball too. He's a relentless post player which will do wonders for the continuity in LA's traingle. The Lakers run a bastardized version of the triangle which usually ends up in a isolation or strong side screen/roll for Kobe.

 

With Artest, you can run more continuity.

 

You can do things like station him in the post (especially with Odom on the court), with Gasol/Bynum on the opposite block for rebounding, or high post as a release. Kobe can be anywhere on the perimeter, and Odom can be the speed cutter, and the point guard can be the opposite of where Kobe's stationed. That puts a lot of pressure on defenses cause most small forwards can't handle Artest in the post.

 

You can basically give him Lukw Walton's role, except you'll get more production.

 

He's not as good as Ariza at guarding the speed guards in the West. Players like Roy might give him trouble, and other ultra-quick guards. Ariza might be better against those players. Artest's a real load though on players who try to score using their physicality. He'd match up terrifically with a player like Anthony, or even Jefferson.

 

He's not as athletic as Ariza, which hurts LA's speed game. A lot of the things they do defensively rely on gambles and steals leading to early offense. Artest might force them to play more conventionally, which may hurt them both on defense and early offense.

 

But if you remember how Jordan and Pippen worked the triangle, getting a post-up wing in that offense is dangerous. Now the Lakers have two very skilled post wings, a moderately skilled backup wing, and two post bigs.

 

If the Lakers actually run the triangle and don't use Artest as just a creator, or a feed off of Kobe guy, that offense can do exciting things. And they get a tough guy to boot to help with the Utahs, Houstons, San Antonios, and Denvers. They'll have to change their identity a touch but there's some exciting possibilites if Artest doesn't implode.

[Erick Blasco]

and about Ariza, someone mentioned that he got owned by Turkoglu, towards the end of the series, I think Ariza did a great job of being athletic enough to beat Turkoglu to screens and vaporize Orlando's screen/roll game. His defense the last two games of the series, especially Game 5, was exceptional.