Sky

Nice pics. Phightins - I'm a Laker fan willing to discuss Kobe's flaws substantively and honestly. As a team first fan I am more than willing to admit to the flaws of Laker players and discuss what issues that raises. If you're up for that debate I'm game. If not that's unfortunate. Your call.

Phigtins has valid criticism of Kobe's game and the Laker weaknesses, but then he gets unnecessarily personal in calling Kobe an old man, and loses some validity by only bringing observation and tossing stats. Kobe is not scoring off the dribble. True. But he's facing the Boston zone scheme so he is better off setting up teammates. The argument that needs to be made is that Bryant needs to shoot far less and pass far more. He is getting caught in the trust issues again. Until he can consistently shoot with the splint he needs to pick his spots, draw the D and kick. LA did a much better job of that as a team vs. the Knicks and nailed a ton of uncontested 3s as a result. On a club with maturity issues for Bynum and confidence issues for Gasol both bigs need the ball more. Which means Bryant has to take less shots, particularly when he's this inefficient. Kobe needs to accept that his fga should drop if his shot is this unreliable. Ease up slightly on the shots until the broken finger gets stronger. As to the Laker defense. efg overrewards 3s. Since the Lakers are #1 vs. 3s on defense the efg reflects that and skews the numbers. Where they miss Ariza is that he could jump the passing lanes and get easy buckets in transiton off steals. Artest is 30 pounds overweight and lacks the acceleration to do anything but create steals off the dribble and not the pass. Also no Ariza forces LA to face a set defense. With no point guard whatsoever, and inconsistent shooting midrange and perimeter, they are sorely missing those easy transition buckets. On Ariza. Fans of other teams act as if LA had a choice and chose Artest. Wrong. Ariza's agent insisted that Trevor be paid 8M per or forget it. Kupchak then turned to Artest. Lee overplayed his hand and eventually had to settle for the MLE money that LA would have gladly given Trevor to stay. Artest was not first choice. He became plan B when Lee made it clear Ariza would not sign with LA for MLE. Lee is an idiot and a bombthrower - and the agent of Andrew Bynum - which could contribute to a Bynum trade deadline or in the summer.

As long as he stays healthy LeBron passes Kobe pretty easily and takes down all the youngest to X records. Why are rings always brought up? Because it's what Kobe has over LeBron. Typical fans. Always resort to the bullets, anything to win. In any subjective player vs. player argument each side will always fire the bullet they know hits the mark, regardless of relevance.

Nice job on the LA weaknesses, thorough and accurate list. I agree that the Lakers don't have a quality win yet. They'll need to regroup and get that win vs. Boston. Still not an issue to get out of the west though, it's down this year. Denver can't win road. Dallas doesn't match up well with LA and San Antonio is looking extra crispy. As for trades, Buss is willing to spend slightly more to contend. No reason to have this high a payroll and then still not be sold you can win a championship. Having an owner that wants rings is a big help. The Times always runs a story pre-deadline about LA is not expected to deal because of money. They've run it every year for the last four yet Kupchak has made several deals during those years. Gives LA cover. Times and Lakers are cozy, access in exchange for agenda in print. LA wants it out there they are doing nothing and the Times obliges. Farmar is not the PG of the future and they are very willing to deal him. If they wanted him long term they would have picked up his option last summer. Farmar and Morrison are on the table for whatever they can get. Farmar, Morrision, Vujacic for Hinrich and Johnson is something LA hopes they can pull. Chicago won't unless they have no other offers, but that does reduce the Bulls cap for this summer enough for them to pursue Wade or Bosh. Obviously Chicago would prefer no Sasha in the deal, but LA won't make it without him in the trade to cover the payroll hit of taking on Hinrich's K. So the game of chicken ensues. Bynum for the right impact player is another possibility, albeit more remote. Bosh would be up to Bosh demanding out. Harris won't happen, Nets won't deal him unless they know they're getting Wall in the lottery. I expect the Lakers to shop for a 1 and toughness. After the dual losses to Cleveland they know they can't win it all as is. Buss wants to win. Adding a little more salary is possible, adding a lot is not. So a Hinrich deal with Sasha yes, without Sasha in it no. That's where the money comes into play.

Legacy - Agreed on Boozer. While he can board and shoot he's not that mobile and nothing defensively. On Amare, he fits what they want to do offensively and would put up sick stats, which he wants. But he also wants to play for a contender and the Dubs have no prayer of that. However, if the Warriors were willing to max him out in an extend and trade deal maybe he considers it. Bosh yeah no point, but GS keeps pursuing him anyway. Rudy Gay is a nice player and all but how is another wing going to help this team? They need a post scorer that can board, swat and run the floor or they go absolutely nowhere. Randolph would need years to bulk up and he's a midrange face up player anyway. Wright can't stay healthy and has no post game. Bierdrins has very limited offensive skills. They need a real 4. Desperately. Gay is switching chairs on the Titanic. They get a better chair but they still sink. The guy they should pursue imo is Blatche. When he gets minutes he produces. Good athlete young boards well can swat, score and run the floor.

The Dubs have been rumored to be after Bosh, Amare and Boozer but I can't see any of those teams really liking what GS has to offer. Golden State could add Randolph or Biedrins to a deal, Morrow, possibly Maggette but he's been playing really well of late. The Warriors are one of the few teams that can offer over 10M in expiring contracts, so they can give payroll/tax relief and cap room in exchange for talent. Question is if Utah would essentially liquidate Boozer like that, maybe so given their payroll relative to record. Rudy Gay doesn't address the primary need. The Warriors have to add a post scorer that can board but still run the floor.

Pau Gasol's spine (and certain other body parts) please pick up the white courtesy phone... When Gasol is in Caballo mode the Lakers win, when he's not they lose to the elite. Pau playing like a female body part, poor ft shooting and poor ball movement in the 4th haunted LA, but the Cavs earned the win behind great games from Bron, Varejao and Delonte. LA's lack of success against the best teams should give Kupchak the freedom to deal deadline. Question is who can they get and how much play last years will have in trade value. Hinrich seems the most possible target, with Harris and Bosh entering pipe country but obviously worth pursuing. The Lakers had some success with Odom and Artest as a switch tandem on James, they need to go to that look in the 4th if they should see the Cavs in the finals. Lakers are being done in by the Boston zone schemes, all the more reason to be aggressive deadline. As is the Lakers do not repeat.

1 Gary Payton Alvin Robertson Dennis Johnson 2 Sidney Moncrief Michael Cooper Joe Dumars 3 Scottie Pippen Ron Artest Bruce Bowen 4 Kevin Garnett Dennis Rodman Tim Duncan 5 Bill Russell Wilt Chamberlain Hakeem Olajuwon

Brown has weak handles and poor passing skills, the inability to throw post entry continues with Shannon at 1. Chalmers has dropped from last year's production but he's an excellent defender, sees the floor well, can make passes in traffic. The problem is his shot has left him this year. Playing in LA though he'd get uncontested looks.

LA Times fulfilling their end of the bargain. Every year the Times dutifully runs the Lakers aren't doing anything deadline piece, citing money. In return they get more access than anyone else to Kupchak and the team. And yet despite these pieces, trades were made for Shannon Brown and Morrison, Ariza, etc. The Lakers don't intend to keep Morrison and Farmar, over 7M in last year contracts they'll part with, yet they are just going to sit with their hands folded? When Fisher is in the glue factory? They may not be able to swing a deal but that doesn't mean they won't try, the Times piece implies they won't lift a finger. They'll need some luck but trades are possible. If Chicago doesn't get any offers for Hinrich they may have to take LA's (Ammo, Farmar and Sasha for Hinrich and Johnson). Obviously the Bulls would prefer Sasha not be in it, but LA will only take on Hinrich's deal if they get to dump Sasha's. Chicago still saves money for next year and creates more cap room. But the Bulls only do this if they literally have no other offers for Hinrich. Those of you saying no trades good, I strongly disagree. They have no 1. They need a 1. Defensively Fisher can't stay in front of a fire hydrant. Offensively their glaring lack of skill at post entry passing contributes to Bynum not getting enough touches, pouting and not giving effort on d. Fisher needs to be replaced. Farmar is not the answer, too selfish and no D. Brown is not the answer, lacks the skills to even be a tri point. They need to deal for a point guard. Hinrich, Duhon, Felton, Chalmers. One of them needs to be a Laker by late February.

The Lakers may be about to find out just how bad they would become sans Bryant. The finger is obviously bothering him and back spasms can't just be shaken off. May be necessary to sit Kobe, which will no doubt be against his wishes. The problem is it coincides with one of the toughest schedules they'll face this year. No Kobe kills them offensively. It leaves them with no guards that can create off the dribble, no guards that can pass consistently, no guards that can attract a double. Everything they do is predicated on Kobe. It's how Jackson gets away with having no point guard for over a decade. If Kobe has to sit they may need to start Farmar if just to have some penetration ability on the floor. No Kobe and starting Fisher would get ugly fast.

kingfish - Bosh's free agency isn't a barrier, you can make extend and trade deals. The barrier is money. Would Buss be willing to pay max to Kobe, Pau and Bosh? If anything stops this it's payroll and taxes. Boston would not be an issue. Simmons is terrified of Bosh to LA for good reason. The Thibodeau defense is predicated on swarming Kobe and daring a Laker big to hit an uncontested j from the elbow or a guard hitting a 3 on a kick out. Put Bosh at the elbow and he buries that open jumper all day. The entire scheme of two guys between Kobe and the hoop is no more because Bosh would bury them. You want to make sure the Lakers take down Boston, get Bosh. Defensively Bynum gives them size but just like Shaq the big dog doesn't need to just be fed for him to play defense it has to be full. Constantly. How are you going to keep Bynum full on a team with Kobe and Gasol and terrible post entry passing? You're not. Bosh would set up elbow and keep the ball moving or bury the open j, defenses would be toast. The problem is defensively. Bosh is a good weak side shotblocker when motivated, but Bosh as a first option shifting to 2nd or 3rd isn't going to guarantee solid D from him either. However Bosh is quick and the defensive rotations would be far superior to what they are now. The issue for Bosh is his vulnerability to surrender scoring position on the block. Given what Bosh does for the offense I make the trade, but it would require a shift in defensive philosophy. No more anchor, far more emphasis on rotations. The issue is Pau to center can bang him up and after all his games played in the last two years he's more fragile this year. Final issue is a Bosh trade deadline uses all the assets, leaving them with no means to add a 1. Fisher is now glue factory so not adding a 1 would be a huge gamble. I still make it. Bosh is what the offense would need and the east would have no answer defensively for LA.

Word is Jackson is behind this rumor. He's loved Bosh for a long time and Chris in the triangle opens the floor for Kobe and Pau and shreds Boston's defensive schemes. No one could collapse on Kobe if Bosh is unguarded at the elbow. Makes a ton of sense offensively. Defensively I'm not sold and get worried about toughness, but solving the Boston D is a big step. That said I doubt this happens, at least not now. Colangelo may be listening to offers but he strikes me as the type to cling to Bosh literally to the very last second and then prays Chris will want an S&T to the team of his choice in the summer. Which could be why Jackson floated this, he wants to plant the seed in Bosh's mind that LA is a viable option. Also has the benefit of potentially lighting a fire under Bynum, who now knows he better bring it defensively or he could be have snow on his shoulders instead of playmates. Welcome to the league kid. BYC is not an issue, the Lakers can add Ammo, Farmar and Powell, the Raps add a throw-in for BYC balance and a deal could be made. I think the only holdup would be Colangelo. Jackson would push the good doctor to do it, and a trade now would lessen this year's tax hit. Colangelo won't do this imo unless they start a losing streak or Bosh goes to him privately and requests that the deal be made. A larger deal to include Calderon won't happen, Buss won't touch that salary. No way the Raps would give up Jack, so I don't see how LA gets a 1 out of this. They'd have to get a point by other means, won't happen with Toronto. Even if nothing happens this has benefits for LA. Bosh was just focused on going where LeBron signs, now he considers the Lakers as well. Meanwhile Bynum is either slapped out of complacency or sulks and seals his fate. Sink or swim for Andrew.

Kobe: Fisher's man could average 50. He didn't say it but I thought the reversal was funny, and partially true. Bryant can average in the high 30s today, but with the finger troubles his shooting percentage is too low to average 50.

The topic is greatest Laker it is not greatest overall Laker player. The greatest Laker is the Laker player that led the team to the most rings. That's not pre-designing anything to favor a player it's why the game is played. There is no greater contribution to a franchise than leading a team to winning rings. If you disagree with that then we go out separate ways Real. That is a team sport and winning rings is the purpose and essence of the sport. Best overall Laker player: Kobe Bryant Greatest Laker: Magic Johnson You want to equate the two, to you greatest overall player is greatest Laker. To me the leader with most rings has contributed most to the franchise and like it or not that is not Kobe Bryant. I'm a little surprised you think my definition is contrived for Magic, it's not. As an industrial strength team first fan that is sincerely how I see the game. Basketball is played to determine a team champion. Today's west is stronger than in Magic's day, the 2000s east (until Boston got KG) is weaker at the top and in depth. Showtime was loaded, but so were their finals opponents. Threepeat was weaker but so were their finals opponents. Iverson Sixers, the no D Pacers, the one dimensional Nets. Orlando without their point guard. Those teams wouldn't get out of the east in Magic's day. Showtime had easier western opponents but far tougher finals opponents. We can go round and round on this forever. Magic five, Kobe four. Rings matter most.

There's a gray area when there's debate on what composes greatest. For me there is no debate. The leader with most rings wins, unless there's an impact beyond the championships. Magic had a huge impact and more championships so to me that's it, end of story. When Kobe reaches five then there is a debate, I'd give a slight edge to Magic due to franchise impact, foundation, etc. But when Kobe gets to six and imo he will, then it's over. He'd be undisputed first. Bing vs. Billups I take Chauncey. Bing was good for a long time but Chauncey arrives and they win a ring and go to several finals. Bing had stats but not impact. But Chauncey loses all-time to Zeke. More rings, more impact and a clearly superior player. What the player has to work with is an argument pre-designed to favor Kobe. It's stacking the deck to get the result you want. Even then what did Magic do with the talent around him? Five rings and nine finals appearances against great finals opponents. Look at the Laker team around Magic when they played Chicago. Not that strong, yet they still got there - because of Magic.

Our answers reflect the generation gap Real. The new school gravitates to their player first bias and basis, greatest is player vs. player. The old school goes to rings as king and their team first bias and basis. No bridging that gap, the values and perspectives are deeply entrenched. To me basketball is played to determine a team champion and the leader of the team that wins the most rings is unquestionably the greatest Laker. To you basketball is about the greatest player.

Not renewed yet. Sac will need to deal KMart and have another great draft to take a necessary step forward as a legit rival again. Young core also needs to mature. At least now they have a solid coach and a good talent foundation. The Kings have taken many strides forward this year.

So when do player abilities factor in? Because Michael Cooper has as many rings as Magic as well, so does that make him a greater Laker than Kobe Bryant? The Devean George strawman. You have to lead the team and win, not just win. I think Fisher is the worst starting point guard in the league and has been for some time yet he has four rings. Player abilities factor in when discussing who is the greatest overall player for the Lakers. Then and only then Kobe wins. But that's not the question, it's greatest Laker. btw Magic Minions (props for that) are fewer in number than the Kult. Magic has one more ring than Bryant, Precisely, which makes him a more valuable and greater Laker. How can you possibly put someone ahead of Magic who has less rings? You can't. It's absurd. The greatest contribution to the franchise is rings. Magic has more and he was the leader of those teams. with a far superior team over a course of a full decade of basketball. That's it. Earvin was a Laker for 13 seasons, Bryant at 14. Kobe has had the greater performances, and he's the better overall player (this you agree with). Superior team in a different era when it was possible to build a super team, but they also faced superior opponents. Bird Celtics, Doc Sixers and the Bad Boys would wipe the floor with the Laker Threepeat finals opponents. The Lakers were far superior but so were their finals opponents, can't cherry pick one side of it while ignoring the other half of the equation. So other than championship rings, which Magic has only one-upped on Bryant...what else has Johnson done for the LAKERS that Kobe hasn't? Three more finals appearances. Made the franchise immensely valuable which allowed Staples to happen etc. Kobe has certainly played a role in expanding the value of the franchise as well, but Magic's task was more difficult, he entered a league in trouble and when he left the league was transformed. That gets swept under the table a lot. It shouldn't. The Magic/Bird/Jordan trio is what changed basketball in the 80's, not just Magic himself...and the truth is, it was Jordan who brought the interest back to the playgrounds, with kids wanting to be like him, and it was he who raked in deals with the likes of Nike, McDonald's, and many others that significantly helped the NBA turn into a media giant, but even then, that wasn't just for the Lakers, Celtics or Bulls, that was for the league. Magic's style of basketball brought fans and media back to the game. Finals on tape delay. Unthinkable now. Magic vs. Bird was the foundation. Magic's joy for the game was infectious. Find a fan who wasn't fond of Showtime, how basketball should be played. Magic was the engine, Bird was the rival. Jordan came after Magic and Bird had already brought the league back from the drug era. What Jordan did was pioneer athlete as pitchman and usher in a generation that saw a shift from team only to player first. Magic and Bird brought the game back. Jordan introduced the star-driven NBA business model. The impact isn't shown today because the NBA is already global. Is there any doubt that Kobe could've done the same thing, assuming he came into the league with someone like LeBron at a time when the NBA needed that extra boost? Kobe's talent would be the same, his charisma, not so much. The greatest Laker should be the greatest player to play in a Lakers jersey. Being the better overall player has a lot to do with that, or else Cooper trumps Bryant, and that's just ridiculous, to say the least. The greatest Laker should be the leader who delivered the most rings and had the most impact on the franchise. The best overall player is a different argument. It's player vs. player. Greatest Laker means most value to the Lakers. That's undeniably Magic. By the way, I think it's close enough to be a tie, in my opinion...but there's only one choice available for each member, so yeah... Can't be a tie in my eyes. Magic has more rings and more impact for the franchise. Kobe may well surpass Magic, but he will have to get at least five rings before it can be debated. So we can revisit this in June. Until then the greatest Laker is Magic Johnson.

It's greatest Laker not greatest Laker overall player. The greatest Laker on the floor is most rings most impact and that is undeniably Magic Johnson. How can Kobe be the greatest Laker when he has less rings than Magic? He can't. You want to say Kobe is a better overall player than Magic ok agreed. But is he more important to the franchise? No. Five rings to four. Nine finals appearances to six. And most important of all elevating the game and the franchise to lay the financial base that then makes everything that followed possible. Staples doesn't happen without Showtime, the entire NBA doesn't reach this level without Showtime. Shaq and Kobe doesn't happen without Staples. Affording the league's highest payroll now doesn't happen without Threepeat. It's a connective thread but the key thing is it began with Dr. Buss and Magic. Earvin set the franchise on its current path and everything flows from that. Which makes Magic's impact HUGE. Kobe Kult can revert to Kobe as a better overall player all they want. He is. But he is not the most important nor the greatest LAKER. Magic is. By any measure. Rings, finals appearances, impact on the franchise, impact on the league and impact on the sport.

Magic. Five rings, nine NBA Finals. Took basketball to art form, redefined his position and in the process resuscitated basketball. Before Magic the NBA Finals were on tape delay at 11:30 pm. Kobe won't have the opportunity to save the game or redefine his position so he'll have to win more rings and appear in more finals than Magic to pass him. Until then, Magic is first.

Hinrich does three things well outside of stats that the Lakers need. Defend. Post entry. Backup 2. Which is why they are interested in him but only if they get to dump Sasha in the process. Hinrich would get wide open looks in LA that he wouldn't in Chicago. He is overpaid but it's frontloaded, his money goes down each year which makes him easier to deal down the road provided he resuscitates. Captain Kirk is not a savior but he is clearly an upgrade. If they can do better then fine, but who? Felton is another guy they have been interested in for a long time, but LA has already gone to the well so often with the Cats that the Lakers have nothing left that Charlotte would want. Felton is a last year so they get no cap savings by dealing him. Duhon is another target, his game is coming around, but his shot has been suspect. He'd be the passer they need, but his lack of footspeed is an issue. Sessions, also on the block, good passer, but he needs the ball and signed a sizable contract. Arenas is on the block but way too big a price tag. I like Charlie Bell but he's been inconsistent. I like Collison and Chalmers but neither can be had. You run down the options of what Farmar and Morrison can get in trade and Hinrich may very well be the best they can do. You have a better option in mind that's realistic in trade and price tag then name him. Redd is impossible for LA, max player, Buss can't just ignore taxes.

Willie - Chicago has been shopping Hinrich but wants to deal him on their terms aka no post 2010 salary back. Thing is no one is willing to do that. Few teams even want Hinrich given his salary, but LA is one of them, they've liked Captain Kirk for a long time. Few players are less movable than Sasha but Redd and Gadzilla are two of them, radioactive contracts. No one touches those two.

No one in their right mind would deal for Sasha, but there is an opportunity if a team is looking to create the cap room to go shopping this summer in free agency. That's why they've floated Farmar, Ammo, Sasha to Chicago for Hinrich. The Bulls need to move Hinrich, he makes a ton next year, and if LA offers Farmar, Ammo, Sasha then the Bulls cut 4M off their cap. Obviously what they want instead is just Farmar and Morrison, that way Chicago clears 9M, but LA won't do it, too much payroll and too high a tax bill. The Lakers are hoping Chicago can't get a better offer for Hinrich than clearing 4M off the cap.

Given the appetite for last year contracts I'd be surprised if the Lakers don't move Farmar and Morrison by the deadline. Rumors of that package offered to Chicago (along with Sasha) for Hinrich and to New York for Duhon. Maybe they are also looking at Sessions and Felton as potential targets. With the horrific bench play and the need to get a new starting 1 ready for next year a trade is necessary. Potentially that can be a combo guard that can back up at 1 and 2 now and then start at 1 next year. They had hoped that would be Shannon Brown but now it may have to change to a trade acquisition instead.