Charles Barkley : Lebron Will Never Be A Kobe or Jordan

[Flash]

Kobe wanted complimentary players. Gasol, Odom, Artest - these guys never brought a team somewhere by themselves. Gasol had no postseason success as the star of Memphis.

 

The Heat have three cornerstone players that have taken teams to the playoffs by themselves. Each player could be a franchise player.

 

Heat could have 3 guys starting in East team, LA 1 most likely starting.

 

And? It doesn't change what Kobe did.

[Erick Blasco]

He choked against the Magic? He averaged 39/8/8 that series, hit the GW 3 in Game 2 and took over Game 5 in the 4th quarter. That's a ridiculous statement. He gave up against Boston...but him giving up still translated to a 27/19/10 triple double in a loss. And Kobe had that same stigma when they lost Game 7 in 2006 to the Suns, and wanted to be traded a year later. The difference? Time. Once the Boston thing is erased from people's minds with a few typical dominant LeBron playoff series' and maybe a ring, it'll mean nothing.

 

People have very short-term memories.

 

He did the same things in Game 6 against Orlando that he did in the four losses against Boston (though I don't think he played poorly from games 1-5).

 

His game plan is too simplistic to be at Jordan/Kobe level. He doesn't know how to work below the free throw line so when he initiates his offense, he's out beyond the three point arc. It gives good defenses time to rotate, and since it's such a steady diet of the same plays, the defenses will know how to recover to the shooters.

 

It's the same thing that gets Kobe in trouble, but Kobe's better at working without the ball to free himself up, and can initiate from the free throw line down. He's also better at reading defenses and making trigger passes that lead to other players getting open looks.

 

And Kobe's midrange game allows him to find soft spots in the middle of defenses instead of LeBron's pull up threes or straight line drives into walls of defenders. That's how you wind up with nine turnovers.

 

When does LeBron work without the ball except when Cleveland runs that strong-side screen/roll where the other big backscreens for LeBron?

 

Of course his numbers are going to be prodigious---he's a great player who dominates the ball, who also rebounds exceptionally well.

 

He's also in the span of two years made himself into an all-nba caliber defender.

 

But there are so many parts of his offensive game that are so grossly underdeveloped that you question just how much he wants to learn the game. One thing about Kobe, most of his warts have been trust and selfishness issues in his own right, but when has anyone said that he's had an underdeveloped aspect of his game? His technique is near flawless and though he breaks it off a lot, he knows how to run the triangle when teams are taking him away.

 

LeBron force feeds too much.

 

Also, because the Lakers offense involves more motion and versatility, Kobe's supporting cast members worry about playing basketball. LeBron's supporting cast members worry about having to make that open shot or they've failed.

 

Then there's the intangible stuff---all of LeBron's insecurities, his self-absorption, his sense of entitlement, the dancing, the playing...Kobe's ego is gigantic too, but it's centered around a competitive drive of proving he's the best instead of assuming he's the best.

 

Pat Riley's a strong personality and he won't be afraid to demand more accountability from LeBron which will be the best thing in the world for him. There are no more excuses from poor coaching (I have no confidence Eric Spoelstra coaches this Heat team, and am sure Riley will take over), to poor teammates.

 

Look, in a vacuum, LeBron's the best player in the game. He's easier able to impose his will on both ends of the court. Non-elite defenses get worn down by him...not his team, but him personally. He dominates the rim and has improved his three-point shooting, the most efficient areas on the court. He'll always rebound, and he's become a terrific defender, better on the ball than Kobe, and with fewer mistakes.

 

The difference comes in high-level series where there isn't an overwhelming talent difference and intangibles become a much bigger factor in determining winning and losing.

 

The little personality things that cause Vince Carter to look like a D-Leaguer against Boston, and the killer instinct things that have the Celtics play at a much lower energy level in Games 1, and 6 of the NBA Finals than in any other game, LeBron isn't immune to it.

 

And except for a series when the Pistons had the exact same hubris as the Cavs did, and a Game 7 where Paul Pierce wasn't going to let the Celtics lose in the second round, have we seen LeBron take over against a really good team?

 

Not yet.

[Nitro]

Lot to digest here, so I'll try to just quote the key points. BTW, I wasn't necessarily saying Kobe or LeBron is better than the other. I was exploiting magicballa's horrible logic.

 

His game plan is too simplistic to be at Jordan/Kobe level. He doesn't know how to work below the free throw line so when he initiates his offense, he's out beyond the three point arc. It gives good defenses time to rotate, and since it's such a steady diet of the same plays, the defenses will know how to recover to the shooters.

 

Also, because the Lakers offense involves more motion and versatility, Kobe's supporting cast members worry about playing basketball. LeBron's supporting cast members worry about having to make that open shot or they've failed.

 

Yes, the LAKERS offense allows that. LeBron has never been in a read and react system where other players have to be able to initiate and run the offense. He simply never had players with that kind of talent in Cleveland. It's a lot harder to have the game come to you and have other players run the offense when you ARE the only set offense. I know it's a very small sample size, but watch how he played on Team USA. He let the game come to him and played near flawless all-around basketball. That's what he is naturally. Kobe also played naturally; the same way he does on the Lakers, because they can give him that oppertunity. As I mention later in my post, look at what Kobe did when he was out of the triangle/comfort zone and how it translated.

 

It's the same thing that gets Kobe in trouble, but Kobe's better at working without the ball to free himself up, and can initiate from the free throw line down. He's also better at reading defenses and making trigger passes that lead to other players getting open looks.

 

And Kobe's midrange game allows him to find soft spots in the middle of defenses instead of LeBron's pull up threes or straight line drives into walls of defenders. That's how you wind up with nine turnovers.

 

Kobe is not an efficient ballhandler/playmaker, not on the level of LeBron. In the one year Kobe played out of the triangle he coughed up 4+ TO's per game. Last year he averaged the same amount of TO's as Bron while averaging over 3 less assists and 3 less points. You can say Kobe makes better on-point passes and reads of the defense, but in the end that is counter-balanced by him forcing things that aren't there (like his crossovers to split defenses). LeBron also has much better court vision, can make more difficult passes with greater consistency, and most importantly is more willing to get his teammates involved on a nightly basis. Kobe that's been a struggle his entire career.

 

LeBron force feeds too much.

 

And Kobe may not force feed players the same as LeBron, but LeBron doesn't try and force feed the basket with the ball as much as Kobe, either. Kobe had 47 games last year where he took 20+ FGA, and 18 of those he shot below 45% from the field. In comparison, LeBron had only 43 games of taking 20+ FGA, and only 6 of those games did he shoot below 45%. That's a very substantial difference, regardless of skill.

 

And except for a series when the Pistons had the exact same hubris as the Cavs did, and a Game 7 where Paul Pierce wasn't going to let the Celtics lose in the second round, have we seen LeBron take over against a really good team?

 

First off, what do you define as a great team? If we are talking defensively, then you just mentioned LeBron dominating two of the best defenses of the last decade (who Kobe himself has struggled against) Secondly, are we talking playoff series or individual games?

 

Kobe has never had as dominant of a series as LeBron did against the Magic. Ever. And IMO Kobe's never had as dominant of a playoff performance as LeBron's 48pt game against Detroit. And that's with Kobe playing in over 120 more post-season games.

 

For his career, Kobe's never had a post-season where he shot 48%. Averaged over 6.5 boards only twice. Over 6APG only once. LeBron has shot over 50% each of the last two post-seasons, grabbed over 7.5RPG each post-season, and besides his rookie campaign never averaged below 7.3APG. That's consistent dominance and efficiency where all the teams are on a good to great level. LeBron has NEVER had as horrible of a series as a few of Kobe's duds.

 

 

 

 

 

****Kobe is IMO the most skilled player of all-time. I do not deny that. He's also tough as nails and generally a very intelligent player. However, his over-confidence in those skills is why he'll never the GOAT (IMO). He has a poor shot selection, and if he's having an off-night scoring the ball he's not making a big positive impact offensively.

 

LeBron, by the nature of his game, is a more efficient scorer. That's important because there will be less nights that he will be a volume scorer who shoots an inefficient percentage. And if he isn't scoring the ball well, he has the vision, ability, IQ and willingness to play similar to an elite passing PG. He will also crash the boards more often than Kobe and be a major contributor there as well. He has more ways to kill a team than Kobe does, and that goes a very long way IMO.

[Bleed Green]

I wish I lived in Miami. Those three guys are going to be really special together, and going to those games would be soo much fun. I think this is good for the league, but the Heat are going to have to wait two more years when Ray Ray, and KG's contracts run out to get past Boston in the Eastern Conference.

[Super Cool Beas]

Guess what Barkley....LeBron isn't interested in being Kobe or Jordan.

 

What I do find funny though...even if LeBron wanted to be Kobe or Jordan, he needs rings on his fingers. Apparently putting himself in an amazing position to get those rings makes him even less like Kobe or Jordan. But yes, LeBron will never be bigger than the game itself...but neither will anybody else not named "Jordan". At the same time, LeBron will never be committing adultery all along the western United States.

 

The LeBron hate is getting old and it's time to let LeBron James be LeBron James. STOP COMPARING HIM.

[Hawks Fly High]

Guess what Barkley....LeBron isn't interested in being Kobe or Jordan.

 

What I do find funny though...even if LeBron wanted to be Kobe or Jordan, he needs rings on his fingers. Apparently putting himself in an amazing position to get those rings makes him even less like Kobe or Jordan. But yes, LeBron will never be bigger than the game itself...but neither will anybody else not named "Jordan". At the same time, LeBron will never be committing adultery all along the western United States.

The LeBron hate is getting old and it's time to let LeBron James be LeBron James. STOP COMPARING HIM.

 

hahahaha funny. his mom might

[Erick Blasco]

Lot to digest here, so I'll try to just quote the key points. BTW, I wasn't necessarily saying Kobe or LeBron is better than the other. I was exploiting magicballa's horrible logic.

 

 

 

Yes, the LAKERS offense allows that. LeBron has never been in a read and react system where other players have to be able to initiate and run the offense. He simply never had players with that kind of talent in Cleveland. It's a lot harder to have the game come to you and have other players run the offense when you ARE the only set offense. I know it's a very small sample size, but watch how he played on Team USA. He let the game come to him and played near flawless all-around basketball. That's what he is naturally. Kobe also played naturally; the same way he does on the Lakers, because they can give him that oppertunity. As I mention later in my post, look at what Kobe did when he was out of the triangle/comfort zone and how it translated.

 

Part if it is poor coaching, but some of it is LeBron's need to dominate the ball. Yes, Mo Williams has proven time and again that he fires blanks in the clutch, but there can be system guys in place. Anthony Parker is a ball mover. Varejao is a screen-setter. Delonte West, until last year's awful campaign, is a good decision maker. You had Shaq in the post. If Mike Brown was a stronger personality, the Cavs could have ran a more complicated offense where they use LeBron as a finisher and not a playmaker. It would eliminate some of the pressure off him.

 

We're probably going to see if LeBron can play without the ball against NBA defenses now that he's with Wade, Bosh, and Riley. If he can't, the Heat will be ripe for underachieving.

 

 

 

Kobe is not an efficient ballhandler/playmaker, not on the level of LeBron. In the one year Kobe played out of the triangle he coughed up 4+ TO's per game. Last year he averaged the same amount of TO's as Bron while averaging over 3 less assists and 3 less points. You can say Kobe makes better on-point passes and reads of the defense, but in the end that is counter-balanced by him forcing things that aren't there (like his crossovers to split defenses). LeBron also has much better court vision, can make more difficult passes with greater consistency, and most importantly is more willing to get his teammates involved on a nightly basis. Kobe that's been a struggle his entire career.

 

Fair point, though I think Kobe's come a very long way starting in 2007 when Fisher came back to the Lakers and he started to put more trust in his teammates. I also don't think LeBron is as great a passer as his rep, but he does make good decisions in his drive and kick.

 

 

 

First off, what do you define as a great team? If we are talking defensively, then you just mentioned LeBron dominating two of the best defenses of the last decade (who Kobe himself has struggled against) Secondly, are we talking playoff series or individual games?

 

I'm also talking about Individual games late in series where scouting knows everything each team will do and there are stakes for the opposing team as well. Orlando was up 3-1 and on the road for LeBron's Game Five outbreak. Game Six saw LeBron on the road and saw the Magic with a higher sense of urgency.

 

I'm also talking about a team with the talent and the mentality to win a championship. Last year there were only two, Boston and LA. The Cavs as constructed last year were too one-dimensional offensively to win, and got little out of any supporting cast members other than Shaq and Parker. Orlando last year took three games to simply play hard.

 

Boston lost in the Finals but their play was championship-worthy.

 

That version of the Pistons was lazier than the 2004 and 2005 versions. They started getting full of themselves and not taking their opponents seriously and couldn't get things in gear against Miami and the following year Cleveland.

 

The performance against Boston in Game Seven was a fantastic performance.

 

Looking back though, LeBron's achieved all his successes as an underdog. The 2007 Cavs were underdogs to Detroit as were the 2008 Cavs underdogs to Boston. It's the last two years as favorites where LeBron has struggled to close out good teams.

Kobe has never had as dominant of a series as LeBron did against the Magic. Ever. And IMO Kobe's never had as dominant of a playoff performance as LeBron's 48pt game against Detroit. And that's with Kobe playing in over 120 more post-season games.

 

Kobe's never had to put up those numbers in order to win in the postseason. He's always been with Phil Jackson who fosters balance. And his performance against Phoenix last year was pretty dominant and arguably more efficient than LeBron's series against Orlando. Kobe had five games with two or fewer turnovers, LeBron had two. Kobe had four games shooting over 48%. LeBron had two. Kobe had three games with double figures assists, LeBron had one. The quality of defense was much, worse, but Kobe knows how to dominate series' too.

For his career, Kobe's never had a post-season where he shot 48%. Averaged over 6.5 boards only twice. Over 6APG only once. LeBron has shot over 50% each of the last two post-seasons, grabbed over 7.5RPG each post-season, and besides his rookie campaign never averaged below 7.3APG. That's consistent dominance and efficiency where all the teams are on a good to great level. LeBron has NEVER had as horrible of a series as a few of Kobe's duds.

 

The only response I have to that is how much do you consider series' vs. the 2009 Pistons, 2009 Hawks, and 2010 Bulls playoff series? Those are series where the Cavs have virtually no way to lose to those teams. His numbers will be off the charts because a steady diet of LeBron will overwhelm them.

 

 

 

 

****Kobe is IMO the most skilled player of all-time. I do not deny that. He's also tough as nails and generally a very intelligent player. However, his over-confidence in those skills is why he'll never the GOAT (IMO). He has a poor shot selection, and if he's having an off-night scoring the ball he's not making a big positive impact offensively.

 

LeBron, by the nature of his game, is a more efficient scorer. That's important because there will be less nights that he will be a volume scorer who shoots an inefficient percentage. And if he isn't scoring the ball well, he has the vision, ability, IQ and willingness to play similar to an elite passing PG. He will also crash the boards more often than Kobe and be a major contributor there as well. He has more ways to kill a team than Kobe does, and that goes a very long way IMO.

 

I don't think Kobe will ever be the goat either. He's just not as good as Jordan was. I actually disagree that LeBron has more ways to kill a team because Kobe can attack different weakpoints from different areas. I think LeBron's fundamental weakness is that he's so good in the efficient areas of the court (at the rim and also from three) that against defenses know how to force opponents to take mid-range jumpers, he struggles. Boston knows that the basket and the three-pointer are golden for efficiency and form defenses that force you to go off from 15-20 feet. Can you beat them from the mid-range?

 

I do think, though, that most of LeBron's flaws are intangible related and unquantifiable. There's no quantification to study the causes of quitting when an opponent doesn't lay down and die.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Erick Blasco

[Super Cool Beas]

I usually hate posting long-[expletive] articles but this one is a great read. Haters out there need to edumacate themselves a little better.

 

Courtesy of Scoop Jackon:

 

LeBron's big move? Been there

 

Now that it's all over, maybe we can return to a semblance of reality.

 

To help us get there, and before LeBron James becomes Public Enemy No. 2 in the next SportsNation poll -- which seems to be happening in the aftermath of "The Decision" -- let's clear up a few things. It should send us on our way back to our normal existence.

 

One: This has been done before in other sports. (And no one had a problem with it.)

 

Two: We've seen this happen before in the NBA. (And no one had a problem with it.)

 

Three: Michael Jordan might have done the exact same thing. (But we'll never know.)

 

When Alex Rodriguez was playing in Texas (or, for that matter, in Seattle), he was considered the best player in baseball. He was very much the LeBron James of his game. He had lived up to and surpassed expectations. Still, he eventually realized he couldn't do solo all the things he wanted to get done, so he went to a team that wasn't his. He went to a place where he wouldn't be "The Man," at least not at first. He "took his talents" to New York. He became a Yankee, on Derek Jeter's team.

 

So the question is this: What's the difference with LeBron? Where is the profound difference between what A-Rod did in 2004 and what LeBron did Thursday night?

 

Here's the answer: Other than LeBron's personal connection to the city he left, nothing.

 

Again, this has been done before.

 

In 1982, Moses Malone was considered by many to be the best player in basketball, certainly one of the best of his generation, and he was still in his prime. But just after he collected the second of his three MVP awards and only one year removed from playing in the NBA Finals with the Houston Rockets, he became a restricted free agent. With his team apparently regressing (the Rockets went from their Finals appearance in '81 to out in the first round the next season), Moses decided to leave Houston and go play for the Philadelphia 76ers, a team that already had one of the other best players in the game and of his generation. A guy named Julius Erving.

 

See where this is going?

 

Dwyane Wade is Dr. J, LeBron is Moses and Chris Bosh is Andrew Toney in this analogy. The Sixers went on to win the chip the season Moses joined them, going down in history as one of the greatest teams of all time. And no one said anything about damage to Malone's legacy.

 

Again, we've seen this happen before.

 

Too many times since Thursday night, I've heard people express some form of the following sentiment about LeBron: Real ballers don't join the best; they try to beat the best. More than that, I've heard people (including on "SportsCenter") use MJ as an analogy, suggesting LeBron just did what MJ would never do: leave the Bulls back in the day to play for the Pistons because, at least before 1990, he couldn't beat Detroit. They are calling LeBron's decision a "punk" move.

 

That notion needs to be squashed right here. Fact is, Jordan never had the opportunity to test the free-agent market the way LeBron did. Jordan signed his rookie contract; then, three years into it, the Bulls put an eight-year, $25 million deal on the table that Jordan signed and rode out until well after he'd been stacking rings on his fingers.

 

Bottom line: Jordan was never in the same position LeBron was. Never. And if MJ's long career in Chicago is going to be used to make a point about LeBron's decision to leave Cleveland, that not-so-little factor can't be ignored.

 

We'll never really know.

 

So before anybody else goes all Dan Gilbert on LeBron, take all of that into consideration. And we can carry on with our lives.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Super Cool Beas

[MiamiSolja7]

Haters gonna hate and ballers gonna ball. They can hate lebron all they want. lebron is still gonna win rings.