LeBron says he does not get enough calls

[His Greatness]

Well, then my question lies with the two games I cited from that season. Why didn't LeBron lock him up then? I actually remember one of those highlights, when he was shooting on LeBron, and one of the guys on NBATV was saying how "Batman should've been an all-star." I believe that was in the April game. The November game was when LeBron was supposed to come out and give that defensive stand, and he failed to do so. It's the big reason why he focused all of his attention on Granger in that December game you produced, but his offense suffered from it.

Why doesn't every elite defender shut down his man every night? Because those games happen. It's unrealistic to always expect a defensive shutout. LeBron will get lit up every now and then just like every good defender.

 

Stick LeBron in Washington, no Haywood...and I really don't think he does as good against someone like Granger in that game you gave me, because nobody is behind James to stop the drive. Same thing goes for Ray Allen, when he's defending Bryant. I wouldn't expect Kobe to drive in with Perkins and Garnett (a healthy Garnett) in the game, so when people look at the game and say, "Wow, Ray Allen is forcing Kobe into all of those shots," I think most of us know better than that.

You stick any player on a team where defense is an afterthought and their individual defense will inevitably decline. That's natural. You need your help to be there... that's the entire concept of defense.

 

I truly think LeBron's defense has improved as well. I've stated that before, actually. I just don't think his on-ball defense is as good as people are making it out to be. He's a juiced Shannon Brown. His athleticism makes it super easy to block shots and steal passes, but against scorers, he finds his feet glued to the floor sometimes, on jumpers or drives, and that's why there are games where he decides not to defend those type of players.

LeBron is not an elite on-ball defender. I never called him one. Fortunately, defense is not only played on the ball.

[Poe]

You can't stop anyone in this league one-on-one. I think everybody in the league, if they had a one-on-one match-up, they're going to score most of the time. Guys are too good.

 

- Quentin Richardson

[fish7718]

He's too used to being pampered, this isn't girls rec basketball lebron.

[Real Deal]

I don't even know what you're arguing with me for, then, Mason. All I said was that his on-ball defense isn't good. You're picking apart me saying he couldn't defend borderline all-stars one-on-one, but the entire point is, he's not an elite defensive player.

 

Besides, where is this reputation coming from that LeBron is a poor man-to-man defender? He's improved substantially in that area every season, and this year I can legitimately call him an elite defender overall.

If he has improved substantially every single season, as an on-ball defender...then he'd have to be an elite on-ball defender. That is, unless he was just horrific when he first came into the NBA, as in...Jose Calderon horrific.

 

So you say he's an elite help defender, decent on-ball defender? I don't see where that translates into an elite defender. Sorry. He allows others to score on him, but stops players from scoring on his teammates a few times a game. Well...I can't say I see it in the same light as you do.

[His Greatness]

I don't even know what you're arguing with me for, then, Mason. All I said was that his on-ball defense isn't good. You're picking apart me saying he couldn't defend borderline all-stars one-on-one, but the entire point is, he's not an elite defensive player.

I'm arguing with you for knocking LeBron and underestimating the value of what he does defensively.

 

If he has improved substantially every single season, as an on-ball defender...then he'd have to be an elite on-ball defender. That is, unless he was just horrific when he first came into the NBA, as in...Jose Calderon horrific.

 

So you say he's an elite help defender, decent on-ball defender? I don't see where that translates into an elite defender. Sorry. He allows others to score on him, but stops players from scoring on his teammates a few times a game. Well...I can't say I see it in the same light as you do.

Well not necessarily, because 'substantial' isn't quantifiable.

 

Overall impact is most prominent when it comes to evaluating defense. It's not static. I don't believe in 'allotting points' — you're either an elite defender or you're not.

 

LeBron's minor fundamental flaws in man defense are all perfectible, but they're not quite significant enough to call him a liability or demote him to "average". Yes he cheats too much, and yes he can tighten up his perimeter stances. But on the flipside, he cannot be overpowered, he doesn't foul, he's one of the top d-rebounders at his position, and there's not a better recovery defender in the league. What more, who else has that same combo of size, length, power, speed and quickness? On top of that, he's such a special help defender that I can't not call him elite.

[Real Deal]

The way you dismissed the idea that he was the best defender in the NBA (you did this earlier), you'd think you'd say he wasn't elite. In fact, if he's an elite defender, as you are stating, he's in the discussion as the best...right?

 

So here's what I've gotten from you:

 

1) He's not a great on-ball defender.

2) He does cheat too much.

3) He can tighten up his perimeter stances.

 

Now, given his athleticism (which is what your argument is based on, as your last few statements proved earlier), that makes LeBron an elite defender?

 

I'm sorry. LeBron is a good defender, but it doesn't step beyond that. I'm sure more people fear LeBron coming from behind them and swatting shots, but many less fear taking him one-on-one. If you're an elite defender, it doesn't matter the situation...you're feared.

 

Elite defenders have been Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Alonzo Mourning in the 90's...and Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, and Ben Wallace in the last decade (leaving out others, of course). LeBron doesn't step in that body of work. Not yet, at least. He's a good defensive player, but he's not great, and he's not elite.

[Flash]

I hate to bring up this name because I know what it will turn into. But would you guys say he's a better all around defender than Kobe?

[Real Deal]

I hate to bring up this name because I know what it will turn into. But would you guys say he's a better all around defender than Kobe?

I hope nobody thinks that.

[Flash]

I hope nobody thinks that.

 

Likewise.

[His Greatness]

The way you dismissed the idea that he was the best defender in the NBA (you did this earlier), you'd think you'd say he wasn't elite. In fact, if he's an elite defender, as you are stating, he's in the discussion as the best...right?

Dirk Nowitzki is an elite basketball player. He is not in the discussion as the best.

 

So here's what I've gotten from you:

 

1) He's not a great on-ball defender.

2) He does cheat too much.

3) He can tighten up his perimeter stances.

They're flaws. Every great defender has them if you want to nitpick. It's not like he's biting on every feint or yielding an open look on every possession, they're just areas he can improve on. You won't see him making those mistakes when he 'turns it on'.

 

Now, given his athleticism (which is what your argument is based on, as your last few statements proved earlier), that makes LeBron an elite defender?

LeBron's athleticism is a tremendous asset to his defense. It is not why he is an elite defender. Read again:

But on the flipside, he cannot be overpowered, he doesn't foul, he's one of the top d-rebounders at his position, and there's not a better recovery defender in the league. What more, who else has that same combo of size, length, power, speed and quickness? On top of that, he's such a special help defender that I can't not call him elite.

 

Those were literally my last few statements defending his man D. How did you miss that?

 

I'm sorry. LeBron is a good defender, but it doesn't step beyond that. I'm sure more people fear LeBron coming from behind them and swatting shots, but many less fear taking him one-on-one. If you're an elite defender, it doesn't matter the situation...you're feared.

Team defense. LeBron is very good at it. That's why I rate him so highly. That is essentially what I've been saying this whole time.

 

Elite defenders have been Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Alonzo Mourning in the 90's...and Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, and Ben Wallace in the last decade (leaving out others, of course). LeBron doesn't step in that body of work. Not yet, at least. He's a good defensive player, but he's not great, and he's not elite.

Very convincing argument.

[Real Deal]

Alright, so LeBron is Marcus Camby, with more athleticism. We're good?

 

You act like you want me to sit here and call him the best defensive player in the NBA, yet you say he isn't. If he's all of what you said, the way you described it, then he's hands down the DPOY. Re-read what you're posting and tell me that's not what it sounds like.

 

And yes, he's that good recovering, blocking shots and stealing passes because of his athleticism. He's Shannon Brown on steroids. Brown does the same exact thing in games, comes from behind and swats shots (has grabbed them out of the air a few times), steals the ball in traffic, plays good help defense...but when someone is in front of him, well...that's a different story.

 

So if LeBron is considered an elite defender, so is Shannon Brown, in his limited minutes on the court. You might as well just give me LeBron's blocks and steals totals to defend your argument, because really, that's all you have, and all of that is based on athleticism. You remove the "Shannon Brown" out of his body, and LeBron is Tracy McGrady.

[kingfish]

I dont think you can put Lebron on an offensive player with the hot hand and be satisfied with the results you get. Thats why Lebron has never stepped up to the challenge of stopping an elite offensive player. Its happened every year the Cavs get in the playoffs, Lebron simply refuses to defend the best offensive players at all or even late in games. Many Cavs fans were calling for him to defend Rashard Lewis last year but it never happened. I distinctly remember Lebron sticking to Rafer Alston for majority of the time, and Rafer Alston even lit him up in that Eastern conference finals. He would never guard Turkoglu or Shard Lewis. Theres no reason to consider him an elite defender imo, he doesnt do anything that warrants that statement even his help defense is not even that spectacular he just impresses you with the sportscenter highlights every now and then.

[His Greatness]

Alright, so LeBron is Marcus Camby, with more athleticism. We're good?

 

You act like you want me to sit here and call him the best defensive player in the NBA, yet you say he isn't. If he's all of what you said, the way you described it, then he's hands down the DPOY. Re-read what you're posting and tell me that's not what it sounds like.

 

And yes, he's that good recovering, blocking shots and stealing passes because of his athleticism. He's Shannon Brown on steroids. Brown does the same exact thing in games, comes from behind and swats shots (has grabbed them out of the air a few times), steals the ball in traffic, plays good help defense...but when someone is in front of him, well...that's a different story.

 

So if LeBron is considered an elite defender, so is Shannon Brown, in his limited minutes on the court. You might as well just give me LeBron's blocks and steals totals to defend your argument, because really, that's all you have, and all of that is based on athleticism. You remove the "Shannon Brown" out of his body, and LeBron is Tracy McGrady.

No, he's just LeBron James. Camby is strictly a weakside shot blocker. LeBron is much more than that. Why does there have to be any comparisons?

 

No I'm not. I'm simply writing up what LeBron is good at. You could do the same for every good defender.

 

And no, that's not the same thing. Not even close.

 

1) LeBron's highlights come as a result of playing quality defense. Shannon Brown is an athlete that just happens to make the occassional highlight. Big difference.

2) Just because he blocks shots and picks off passes does not mean he is as good as LeBron at it. Doesn't have the timing, doesn't have the anticipation, and certainly doesn't have the physical tools. Nash and Calderon are both pass-first point guards, but I'm sure you can tell the difference.

3) Help/team defense is much more than steals and blocks. It's neutralizing open looks when there is a misstep on defense. It's assisting your teammates in recovery while they're navigating traffic. It's reading a set and reacting promptly with appropriate adjustments. It's denying penetration and challenging every shot at the rim. It's boxing out so you or your teammates secure the defensive board. Shannon Brown does not do any of that as good as LeBron (if he does it at all), and he's not special enough at any one thing to compensate.

 

I dont think you can put Lebron on an offensive player with the hot hand and be satisfied with the results you get. Thats why Lebron has never stepped up to the challenge of stopping an elite offensive player. Its happened every year the Cavs get in the playoffs, Lebron simply refuses to defend the best offensive players at all or even late in games. Many Cavs fans were calling for him to defend Rashard Lewis last year but it never happened. I distinctly remember Lebron sticking to Rafer Alston for majority of the time, and Rafer Alston even lit him up in that Eastern conference finals. He would never guard Turkoglu or Shard Lewis. Theres no reason to consider him an elite defender imo, he doesnt do anything that warrants that statement even his help defense is not even that spectacular he just impresses you with the sportscenter highlights every now and then.

They had LeBron check Rafer to make the most of his ability as a help defender. It made sense from a strategic standpoint: Cleveland's defense is predicated on providing help, Alston presented the least threat offensively, and it's simply too much to ask LeBron, who already shoulders a massive load on both sides of the floor, to shut down Turkoglu or Lewis for 48 minutes. It's not that he "refuses" the assignment—he still occasionally defends the best player in crunch time, as you saw with Carmelo last week—it's just that conserving his stamina is much more important.

[Real Deal]

No, he's just LeBron James. Camby is strictly a weakside shot blocker. LeBron is much more than that. Why does there have to be any comparisons?

 

No I'm not. I'm simply writing up what LeBron is good at. You could do the same for every good defender.

 

And no, that's not the same thing. Not even close.

 

1) LeBron's highlights come as a result of playing quality defense. Shannon Brown is an athlete that just happens to make the occassional highlight. Big difference.

2) Just because he blocks shots and picks off passes does not mean he is as good as LeBron at it. Doesn't have the timing, doesn't have the anticipation, and certainly doesn't have the physical tools. Nash and Calderon are both pass-first point guards, but I'm sure you can tell the difference.

3) Help/team defense is much more than steals and blocks. It's neutralizing open looks when there is a misstep on defense. It's assisting your teammates in recovery while they're navigating traffic. It's reading a set and reacting promptly with appropriate adjustments. It's denying penetration and challenging every shot at the rim. It's boxing out so you or your teammates secure the defensive board. Shannon Brown does not do any of that as good as LeBron (if he does it at all), and he's not special enough at any one thing to compensate.

So Shannon's blocks and steals aren't quality defense? It's just making the highlight reel? I don't get that, at all. I think that's your way of not comparing the two. If you're going to call one defense, might as well call the other the same thing, since both are the same.

 

Doesn't have the timing and anticipation? A blocked shot is a blocked shot. A steal is a steal. There is no half-block or half-steal. Nash makes better passes than Calderon, and that's VERY evident. Can you give me proof that LeBron's blocks and steals are better than Shannon's? I have a nice video, if you'd like to see it...maybe you can compare the two? Look identical to me.

 

And yes, I know what help defense is. I also know that LeBron is not a defensive anchor, but you're making him sound like Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett.

 

Simply put, you are telling us that LeBron is fantastic at everything on the defensive end but his on-ball defense, at which you say he is good at. Basically, he's the DPOY. Dwight Howard's man defense isn't even as good as Gortat's, so he's sitting right there with LeBron James, and because the majority will say it's either Dwight or LeBron, I'd say it would be your argument that it's true. LeBron, or Howard, is the DPOY.

 

I think you're overrating him on defense, period. Yeah, he did defend Melo. Anthony lit him up in crunch time, with quick release jumpers that LeBron couldn't handle. It's the same thing Rafer did to LeBron, and it was the same thing Kobe was doing to him when he decided to take on Bryant last year, and that was with his dislocated finger he suffered that same game.

 

LeBron is a good defensive player. He's not elite. Hell, Kobe isn't even elite this season. Until players start fearing him and getting locked up, and he becomes notorious for locking guys up, he won't be elite.

[His Greatness]

So Shannon's blocks and steals aren't quality defense? It's just making the highlight reel? I don't get that, at all. I think that's your way of not comparing the two. If you're going to call one defense, might as well call the other the same thing, since both are the same.

LeBron is not a good defender because he gets blocks and steals; he gets blocks and steals because he is a good defender. You were saying that he was in same vein as Shannon Brown in that their numbers define their defense. Brown blocks shots and gets steals but that does not make him a good defender, just like it doesn't make Smush Parker or Al Jefferson good defenders.

 

Doesn't have the timing and anticipation? A blocked shot is a blocked shot. A steal is a steal. There is no half-block or half-steal. Nash makes better passes than Calderon, and that's VERY evident. Can you give me proof that LeBron's blocks and steals are better than Shannon's? I have a nice video, if you'd like to see it...maybe you can compare the two? Look identical to me.

Context. How often do Brown's come, and in what situations? How well does he time his block attempts? How fast is he? How quick is he off his feet? How high can he jump? Does he gamble a lot? Does he foul? LeBron is a better shot blocker than Shannon Brown just like Dwight Howard is a better shot blocker than LeBron.

 

And yes, I know what help defense is. I also know that LeBron is not a defensive anchor, but you're making him sound like Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett.

Defensive anchors do most of their work inside, LeBron is all over the floor. Not many defensive wings have the range to do that.

 

Simply put, you are telling us that LeBron is fantastic at everything on the defensive end but his on-ball defense, at which you say he is good at. Basically, he's the DPOY. Dwight Howard's man defense isn't even as good as Gortat's, so he's sitting right there with LeBron James, and because the majority will say it's either Dwight or LeBron, I'd say it would be your argument that it's true. LeBron, or Howard, is the DPOY.

You said it. I never implied even implied DPOY. Chill.

 

LeBron is a good defensive player. He's not elite. Hell, Kobe isn't even elite this season. Until players start fearing him and getting locked up, and he becomes notorious for locking guys up, he won't be elite.

You already know my take on this. I think that he's such an exceptional and versatile team/help defender that it compensates for not-so-excellent man-to-man defense. I see it differently. Agree to disagree, because this is getting tedious.

[Real Deal]

You have no proof that James is a better help defender, and that's all that counts, in my book. Both trail the opposition and time blocks perfectly at the rim, both read the passing lanes very well, both are decent on-ball defenders, so for all you know, Brown is just as good of a defender as LeBron. Same with Josh Smith, who many would say is actually a better defender.

 

So, yep, agree to disagree.

[His Greatness]

You're getting caught in the trap that team/help defense is all steals and blocks again. It's not.

 

And uh, my proof is through watching. It's the only "proof" you need to evaluate defense. Brown doesn't do anything as well as James, and physically and athletically it's not even close.

[Real Deal]

You're getting caught in the trap that team/help defense is all steals and blocks again. It's not.

 

And uh, my proof is through watching. It's the only "proof" you need to evaluate defense. Brown doesn't do anything as well as James, and physically and athletically it's not even close.

I never said it was all blocks and steals. I'm simply saying that he blocks shots and steals the ball just as well as LeBron. There's no "timing" statistic. Either you block the shot through good timing and anticipation, or you don't block the shot.

 

Well, my proof is through watching as well. How many games have you watched of Brown? I've seen every single one of them this season. How many of LeBron? I've also watched every single Cavaliers game, because it's Jessica's favorite team.

 

So...not sure where you want to go with your observations now, but Shannon Brown is every bit as athletic as LeBron James, and there's nothing you can say to disprove that.

[His Greatness]

If you're not saying that it's everything, then why are you implying that Brown is just as good a defender as LeBron "for all I know"?

 

There is no timing statistic, but you don't need one. You eventually get a feel for it if you observe them enough, just like with everything in basketball. Having the physical tools to do everything (like LeBron) is a plus. BTW, judging from the infrequency of Brown's blocks—27 career total, 14 total this season and averaging .2 BPG—I'm inclined to believe these are spectacular occurrences rather than something routine.

 

And that is absurd — no one is as athletic as LeBron. And he is much bigger than Shannon Brown, which makes a huge difference when you're judging this.

[Real Deal]

So you seriously just compared their stats, knowing LeBron plays most of the game? Come on.

 

Oh well. LeBron is GOAT at everything.

[Sky]

James is a much smarter defender than Brown. Shannon was making mental mistakes all game yesterday on d. Both have good acceleration and quick ups but you need to be in position to make the play, James is there more often than Brown.

 

Thing with LeBron though is he's the most protected player in the league at 1.7 pf against and he knows it. Which allows him to play more physical defense, more gambling defense, have more contact, and know that none of it will be called. Give a powerful athlete the freedom to play physically and his defense will reflect that. Look at Artest yesterday. Fantastic game on Melo, but it was due in part to the refs letting contact go. He was allowed to play physical ball. Bron is given that freedom every night.

 

1.7 pf against means that James has no leg to stand on about the officiating. Do not whine about I need more calls - unless you want more called against you on d. No? Then shut up and play.

[His Greatness]

James is a much smarter defender than Brown. Shannon was making mental mistakes all game yesterday on d. Both have good acceleration and quick ups but you need to be in position to make the play, James is there more often than Brown.

 

Thing with LeBron though is he's the most protected player in the league at 1.7 pf against and he knows it. Which allows him to play more physical defense, more gambling defense, have more contact, and know that none of it will be called. Give a powerful athlete the freedom to play physically and his defense will reflect that. Look at Artest yesterday. Fantastic game on Melo, but it was due in part to the refs letting contact go. He was allowed to play physical ball. Bron is given that freedom every night.

 

1.7 pf against means that James has no leg to stand on about the officiating. Do not whine about I need more calls - unless you want more called against you on d. No? Then shut up and play.

He's protected (like every superstar), but I would wager that it has less to do with the officiating and more to do with his style of defense and him just being smarter with his fouls.

 

Aside from the occasional strip and block attempts, when have you ever seen him play physical? He doesn't body up on the perimeter, and he never takes unnecessary fouls inside. Watch him on the outside next time: he's often very liberal with the amount of space he gives his man. The Artest brand of defense is very different from the LeBron brand of defense.

 

I believe someone collected a series of 'questionable' plays regarding his fouls on defense last year in the playoffs and there was nothing conclusive.

[Erick Blasco]

James is a much smarter defender than Brown. Shannon was making mental mistakes all game yesterday on d. Both have good acceleration and quick ups but you need to be in position to make the play, James is there more often than Brown.

 

Thing with LeBron though is he's the most protected player in the league at 1.7 pf against and he knows it. Which allows him to play more physical defense, more gambling defense, have more contact, and know that none of it will be called. Give a powerful athlete the freedom to play physically and his defense will reflect that. Look at Artest yesterday. Fantastic game on Melo, but it was due in part to the refs letting contact go. He was allowed to play physical ball. Bron is given that freedom every night.

 

1.7 pf against means that James has no leg to stand on about the officiating. Do not whine about I need more calls - unless you want more called against you on d. No? Then shut up and play.

 

James has almost identical foul metrics and block percentages as Luol Deng. Are the refs "protecting" Luol Deng too?