Real Deal

Can't really figure out what he sees in Augustin, and I'm not sure how Jrue will break out if he's going to be playing alongside both Turner and Iggy, unless he expects one of them to take very, very few shots per game, and Turner handle the ball much less than expected.

Go ahead and add the final post. I'm done hearing you trash Kobe with Jordan's scoring outputs to argue how well Duncan has produced in the post-season. Seriously...don't really care anymore.

Haha...now wait. I brought Jordan up first, but did NOT relate it to Kobe in any way, shape or form. I asked you if you would take a big (like Duncan) over Jordan (a guard). Then you added, "Kobe is not Jordan." I didn't say a word after that. And a post later, you add, "It's not like we're talking about Jordan, who had 1 career 60pt playoff game, 7 50pt playoff games, and 30 40pt playoff games." Re-read your posts, please. You drove Jordan right into this debate to smash Bryant's offensive production in the post-season, to make Duncan look like a saint. Simple as that. LOL, how did you shut it down? I didn't even compare the two post-season performances...you did that (see above). I simply stated, clear as day, that Bryant would have had many more "scoring outbursts" if he wasn't sharing the ball with someone that dropped 30-40 per game in the post-season. And no, I didn't say he would have more than Jordan. I stated he (Kobe) would have more than he (Kobe) does today. You shut that down by giving me Jordan's numbers versus Bryant's? Haha, okay? Ridiculous, dude. My statement had nothing to do with Jordan, but keep tossing him in there. Point was, Jordan didn't have to share the ball with a 30-40 PPG scorer...ever. By the time Kobe left Shaq and he returned to the playoffs, he was already a month or two away from 28 years old, and he played 12 total playoff games before adding Gasol. And I already gave you the defensive numbers for those teams, but you turn around and show me how good players did against them? Do I need to go see how well players did against the 1998 Jazz, and tell you that Stockton wasn't indestructable? Funniest of them all. He was out of his prime? He won two MVP awards during the second three-peat. He was 32 years old when the Bulls won 72 games, averaged 29/6/4 in 1997-98 and won the MVP award. From 1996-1998, Jordan played his 10th, 11th and 12th NBA seasons (actually, since he was out an entire season as a sophomore, you could say even less). Bryant is 32 years old heading into this upcoming season, his 15th season. Was he out of his prime last season? The year before? The year before that? So Kobe, in his 10th season (out of his prime, like Jordan was his 10th), put up 35 PPG? Jordan averaged more PPG in the Finals than Bryant? Mind-blowing! Iverson averaged 35.6 PPG against the Lakers in the Finals. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shooting 30+ FGA per game if he had Shaq down low. Kobe has been feeding the post for his entire career with Phil Jackson. Jordan didn't have to feed the post -- Pippen was running the offense. One is the primary option AND facilitator, one is the primary option. Hey, you forgot to tell me why 35 guards shot 50+ percent from the floor during Jordan's era, and why just five have done it since he retired. Guess that's not too significant, though, because it downgrades his "amazing" shooting that is just unheard of for any guard. In Jordan's 11 of his last 18 Finals games (10th, 11th and 12th full seasons in the league, but according to you, out of his prime), he shot under 45%...under 41% in five of those 11. Point? When you play 4-7 games, one or two games will hurt your FG%...the same as one or two will boost it. When Kobe shot 51% against the Nets in the Finals, it was because he had three good shooting games. If he had missed 12 more shots in that series (just 12), his percentage drops to 41%. In a four-game series, the difference between 10 shots is going to be 6-10% or so. Jordan shot better than Kobe in the Finals? Man, good job pointing that out. It doesn't tell me much. That could mean that, in a four-gamer, Kobe missed 2.5 more shots per game. :o If Jordan misses an average of three more shots per game in the 1997 NBA Finals, he drops down to 40% FG, instead of the 46% he shot. Give Jordan two more buckets per game against Payton in 1996, and suddenly, Jordan goes from 41% to 51%, and you'd be bragging about how he dominated one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, and wouldn't have to make excuses about Jordan exiting his prime. You see how ridiculous those Finals percentages are? But I see you're going to be on top of those, whether you're talking about Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, or Detlef Schrempf.

Gasol was 6-16 in Game 7, absolutely terrible for a big man. Kobe had 15 rebounds, just three less than Gasol's total. Please stop.

Merged about 15 different topics, guys. Please keep all discussion in here.

Haha.

What I saw in the head-to-head match-ups...the game where Bosh pulled down 13 and Gasol had just 9, Bryant had 16 that game. Drew had 9. Just one thing I noticed (went to H2H match-ups probably the same exact time you did, haha). For me, Gasol isn't THAT much better at crashing the glass, but I have to give him the upper hand because of his offensive rebounding and his length. I would trust Gasol more than Bosh, if I needed a last-second board, offensive or defensive rebound.

Hahaha, look at him smiling.

Rubio has absolutely sucked. I'm not sure if it's because of that screen that Pietrus hit him with (the neck problems) or what, but maybe it's just a coincidence he has been playing badly since.

Why are you nut-hugging MJ in this topic? Low FG%? Jordan shot 50% easily, right? Do you know how many guards shot 50%, 15+ PPG, when Jordan was playing? 1. Otis Birdsong 2. Rolando Blackman 3. Mo Cheeks 4. Walter Davis 5. Sherman Douglas 6. Clyde Drexler 7. Joe Dumars 8. Blue Edwards 9. Dale Ellis 10. Sleepy Floyd 11. George Gervin 12. Penny Hardaway 13. Derek Harper 14. Ron Harper 15. Jeff Hornacek 16. Jay Humphries 17. Kevin Johnson 18. Magic Johnson 19. Reggie Lewis 20. Lewis Lloyd 21. Jeff Malone 22. Sarunas Marciulionis 23. Reggie Miller 24. Gary Payton 25. Drazen Petrovic 26. Terry Porter 27. Paul Pressey 28. Mark Price 29. Alvin Robertson 30. Byron Scott 31. Derek Smith 32. Kenny Smith 33. John Stockton 34. Sedale Threatt 35. Doug West After 1996, until 2003 (when Jordan retired), not one guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more. From 1996 (Kobe's draft year) until the 2004-2005 season, no guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more. Since Kobe was drafted, only these players have done it... 1. Monta Ellis 2. Steve Nash 3. Tony Parker 4. Chris Paul 5. Deron Williams Credit Imadul at TLN for that list. Are you seriously going to throw that mess out there for me? Again, it's easy to make a player look bad. Jordan was stuck in a box by Gary Payton. Bryon Russell was screwing with his brain. Why bring up what Kobe has done in the Finals, and try to compare that to Jordan? The Utah Jazz were 17th in the NBA, defensively, when Jordan shot bad against them in the NBA Finals. Bryon Rusell and Jeff Hornacek were defending Jordan. Karl's Sonics had a 102.1 defensive rating, second in the league, mainly because of Gary Payton. Would you like to know the 2004 Pistons' defensive rating? 95.4. Boston was also under 100. Both the 2004 Pistons and the 2008 Celtics were among the best defensive teams the league has seen in the last two decades. The 1986 Celtics held opponents to 46% shooting. The 2008 Celtics held them to 41.9% from the floor. The 2004 Pistons? Opponents shot 41.3% against them. Has Jordan ever faced a defense like that in the NBA Finals? Nope...not even close. OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Jordan... 1991 Lakers: 46.2%, 105.0 1992 Blazers: 45.4%, 104.2 1993 Suns: 47.9%, 106.7 1996 Sonics: 43.8%, 102.1 1997 Jazz: 43.8%, 104.0 1998 Jazz: 43.9%, 105.4 OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Kobe... 2000 Pacers: 44.6%, 103.6 2001 Sixers: 42.9%, 98.5 2002 Nets: 42.9%, 99.5 2004 Pistons: 41.3%, 95.4 2008 Celtics: 41.9%, 98.9 2009 Magic: 43.3%, 101.9 2010 Celtics: 45.1%, 103.8 Please dude...give me a break. To justify Duncan's "eliteness" over Kobe, you use Jordan as your weapon of choice, then you start slamming Bryant's Finals performances? You talk about how bad Phoenix was defensively (help defense), but you ignore Bell and Marion...say that those man defenders didn't matter. Teams had to commit to doubles against Jordan, or else they couldn't double him...not so much in this era. A few YT highlights aren't going to prove that he was doubled, or tripled, as much as Bryant. Not only that, but you said it yourself earlier: the Spurs ran three or four of the greatest defensive teams of all-time when they were winning their rings...just another opponent with elite defenders (Duncan and Bowen) attempting to keep Bryant at bay. Yeah dude, we get it: Jordan is incredible. He's the GOAT. We don't need to be told that over and over again.

It can work against Gasol as well. The more players you have crashing the glass and grabbing boards, the less boards you'll pull. That's why Odom doesn't average double-digit boards. Put Gasol and Bosh under the rim together, with similar teammates, and I'm going to say that Gasol out-rebounds him. He boxes out better and has more length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeEnhqS1rk

Oh my GOD...did anyone see that three from Teodosic that took out Spain? He shot it from Antarctica. :o Spain and Greece are both done. Crazy.

No point in me talking about it anymore, to be honest. Either way, best overall players in their primes (among current) would be Bryant, followed by Duncan, then Garnett and Kidd in the mix. Build around? Probably the bigs first (Shaq and Duncan), but it depends on the teammates. Give Kobe a defensive big (like Rodman), a Pippen, and a ton of shooters? I'm probably taking Bryant because, when it's all said and done, Bryant will be doing more for longer, and giving it his all for a full season and playoffs.

I do find it quite funny that you mention how bad the Suns were, defensively, yet they had Raja Bell and Shawn Marion defending Bryant. Phoenix was an average defensive team because of Nash and the frontcourt's lack of defense. Those Suns teams were ranked 16th and 13th on defense those two seasons, by the way...so I'm guessing the bottom 20 teams are terrible, defensively? No average? Bryant hasn't had to defend anyone on the biggest stage? I'm pretty sure he had to defend Iverson after Fisher was lit up for 48 in Game 1. Bryant held AI to 40% or less from the floor for the next two games, defended him half of the time in the fourth game, and Jackson left it up to Lue and Fisher in Game 5. It was Bryant that had to defend Miller most of the time in 2000, and he came out of the gates and held Reggie to 1-16 from the floor in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. When Bryant was assigned Rose for Game 2, he only played nine minutes...and Rose ended up dropping 30 on LA. He had Kittles, for the most part, against the Nets. Not a big deal. That's just the Finals. Offensively, he has done MUCH more than just the 50 he dropped on Phoenix. Remember his 48 points and 16 rebounds against the Kings to sweep the series in 2001, then the following game, Bryant dropped 45 points and 10 rebounds against the Spurs? He added 36 points, 9 rebounds and 8 assists two games later. He stacked 48 or 49 on Denver recently, had a monster fourth. Jordan came into the league, and to the Bulls, as the primary scoring option. Never, ever had a second option that ran up 22+ a game. Same with Tim Duncan, with the exception of 2009 and Parker (22 PPG) and his rookie season. If Bryant had a Dwight Howard, instead of a Shaq, you really think he wouldn't go on "crazy scoring outbursts" in the playoffs? The 2000-2007 Bryant would have more 50s, easily. Why would you bring that into the debate when you know Bryant and Duncan (and Jordan) didn't start on the same path from the beginning? Since Shaq's departure, Kobe has averaged 30+ in three consecutive playoff seasons, nearly four (29.2 PPG this year), and that's in five seasons. With Shaq? Just one time, out of eight. I don't know why you're still trying to make Tim Duncan out to be as good as Bryant on the offensive end, and that it's taking you to discredit Bryant's post-season performances to get it done, ignoring the other 1,000+ games he's played. Both in their primes, Bryant is more likely to dominate a single defender, and by dominate, it means 50 points. Will he do it as efficiently as Duncan? No, because Duncan is a big...but there's one thing to say about Tim that none of his supporters like to hear: for a seven-footer who has had an excellent post game and was never declared soft, he sure doesn't shoot like a true big from the floor. Hell, even Barkley shot better. Charles Barkley - 54.1% career FG, seven seasons shooting 55% or better Kevin McHale - 55.4% career FG, six seasons shooting 55% or better Tim Duncan - 50.8% career FG, zero seasons shooting 55% or better (just zero?) Might as well continue to nit-pick at everything, but I'll bounce from the regular season to the playoffs and cover every game. 2005 Finals MVP? Shouldn't have gotten it after the Pistons held him to under 42% shooting in the series, forced 37% FG on him in a deciding Game 7 (since Bryant's Game 7 was so bad, and Jordan shot 26% in Game 6 vs. Seattle). Throwing a bunch of stats together will make the members go, "Wow...that's crazy! Jordan shot 26% in the final game against Seattle? Whoa... he was held to under 42% FG in that entire series? He was held to under 43% in the 1998 Finals?" It's not hard to make a player look bad.

I never said anything about the Lakers/Suns series. I was using Bryant's regular season numbers, against 29 other teams, 82 games a year. Even without the averages, Kobe's massive numbers in games (81, 62 in three, four-consecutive 50's, nine consecutive 40's, 13 consecutive 35's, 2-3 months of averages of 40 PPG, etc)...they topple everything Duncan has ever put up, and it's a rabbit in a turtle race. You pointing out who Bryant had to defend (and using that to downplay his defense) would be like me looking at who was defending Duncan (using that to downplay his offense). It's similar. I'm 100% sure Duncan has never been asked to drop buckets against guys like Prince, Battier, Bell, Bowen, Jackson, Hinrich, Kidd, Artest, Posey, Wade, Sefolosha, Afflalo, Christie, Roy, Kirilenko, Pippen or Jordan. And it all comes back to this... And it's me saying that Kobe is far superior on the offensive end of the court, more than Duncan's superiority over Kobe on the defensive end. Can't really say where else to go from there.

Drexler wasn't on the 1994 team that won the title, and in 1995 (when Drexler was dealt to Houston), he was not on the all-star team. Put up good numbers, nonetheless, but he was no Kobe. And, Cassell wasn't playing at the end of games during that first championship season. Not as a rookie. All of that is beside the point, anyway, just one sentence of my post. In other words, he was the better shooter...lol. You can't tell me Kidd isn't on Nash's level as a passer. And, unfortunately for Nash, Jason Kidd is one of the best defensive players in the last 10-15 years, while Nash is one of the worst defensive players starting at the point in that time span. Kidd is the complete player. Nash is the shooter. It's a no-brainer, for me.

You can't give me Duncan's 27 PPG playoff run, the sample size he had against Predrag Drobnjak and Shaq. For one...Drobnjak? I could score 30 on him every game...but Shaq was so ignorant in that Spurs/Lakers series, he almost lost us leads I don't know how many times. He and Duncan played "good game, bad game" the entire series, while Bryant basically beat the Spurs by himself. Plus, despite what anyone claims, Shaq was a pathetic defensive player. Heard it enough from Phil Jackson, then had to watch it for years. Pick and roll, he was D-League bad, and his on-ball defense (especially against versatile centers) was ugly. Was the 24 PPG playoff run the year he dominated Dirk? If so, it was also the year Kevin Garnett locked him up, badly, after he kept helping off Duncan that first game of the series, and Robinson had to win it for San An. I'm not going to dive into a 4-12 game playoff run, though. I'm sure he averaged in the 20's when he won his titles, but when you tell me that Kobe has rarely had the most difficult swingman assignment, I can't help but say that Duncan didn't exactly play against any good defenders in the playoffs. Amare, Dirk, Shaq, Drobnjak, four that just come to mind. When he did, against Garnett, he didn't show me anything to drop my jaw about. If this is all about the big man and how you'd build around one over any guard, then I don't see the point of going any further with this. In other words, you would take Shaq over Jordan? Both Duncan and Shaq had a lot of help winning their rings. It's not just about being a seven-footer. Tell me who we put around these guys first, and then I'll decide. Using that logic, you should want to take Hakeem over all of the bigs AND guards, because the truth is, Hakeem had the least amount of help winning his titles.

First shot was a 16-footer. Second shot was a 17-footer. Third was 18 feet from the rim. Fourth was 18-19 feet. Fifth shot was 16-17 feet. You didn't point out a single three in that video, didn't point out a single 20+ foot jumper. The three is 23'9" away from the rim, dude. Rose hits all of those said shots at a MUCH higher FG% than Wade does, much higher than Melo. I gave you the numbers. You gave me five shots that all didn't match your description. This has to suck.

He was 3-11 from three in that Heat-Mavs series, which is what I thought we were talking about? But I guess we're talking about free throws, since he made 75 of them that series. Takes a lot of driving in (what Rose does) to get those calls. Well...okay.

Hockey assists, what he led the team in, that stuff doesn't come into play if we're comparing Kobe and Duncan. That's comparing him and his teammates, when you wanted to throw out Kobe's assists and how he led his team. You make it sound like Duncan was close to a prime Shaq on the offensive end of the court. I never said the offense wasn't ran through him, but that doesn't mean he's on the level of Shaq or Kobe, either (or Jordan, or other amazing offensive players of the last 20 years). Agree to disagree, I guess. I don't know why I would even have to say anything when it comes to their offensive production. Kobe by a mile. Defensively? Bryant locks down whoever he wants and is a mess for opposing teams as a help defender. Duncan is in the same boat. His impact as a big? Okay, he takes Kobe in that regard, but so does Shaq and many other big men. Do you think Shaq was a better defender than Bryant? Not a chance, but his big body changed shots, even when he was late getting back to the rim. If you say it's unfair to look at Kobe's assists numbers, why are we looking at rebounds and blocks for Duncan? Your argument for Duncan's dominance on the defensive end was his size and how he changed the way teams attacked San Antonio. Say the same for Dwight Howard? Only problem is, Dwight's on-ball defense isn't even as good as Gortat's, and we've seen players give Duncan trouble, consistently, in the past...and one of them is Amare Stoudemire.

No, I've excluded layups and dunks from those percentages I gave you. Those were all jumpers, including outside shots. And the same was said about Dwyane Wade, in 2006, when he won an NBA championship and shot .171 from three. I've yet to hear you tell me why that happened.

I am fine debating who is a better defender, because Duncan is amazing in the post...but come on dude. No way, no how, no chance that Duncan is a better offensive threat than Kobe, or a better offensive player, overall. Kobe has had both an offense ran through him AND he ran an offense. He was a second option AND facilitator that averaged 25-30 PPG, and then a primary option AND facilitator that averaged 30-35 PPG. Led the team in assists in almost every single season since the dynasty (except in 2004, Payton, and 2006, 35.4 PPG). The difference between Kobe and Duncan's offensive games...it's greater than the gap between their defense.

I think Bryant is on the same level as Duncan, defensively...but back on offense, Duncan isn't even in his realm, and that's what separates them.

Dude, lol...I gave you numbers on both Wade's threes AND his mid-range game. Rose puts up better numbers, and Wade shot .170 or so from three when he won his title. Rose is a better shooter, statistically. But now you're trying to say, "Okay, just 20-footers!" Seriously? So, to score in the fourth quarter, late in the game, you have to take 20-footers? No 18-footers? LeBron never drove the lane and scored buckets to defeat the 2007 Pistons? They were a pretty good defensive team. When this all started, you were telling us that Rose wasn't a 25 PPG scorer, and that he can't finish with the likes of Melo and Wade. You stated that, if he could average 25, he would prove you wrong. NOW you've narrowed it down to shooting 20-footers, and you're showing us Youtube vids to prove that Wade shoots them better than Rose, even though we've proven that Rose is a better shooter? I can find Youtube vids that show how good of a player Smush Parker is, too. Must be why he's still in the NBA.