AboveLegit

I don't know, maybe. I've watched Greivis the last 4 years, seen plenty of his games live at Comcast Center, he's a hit or miss. Personally, I feel he would do much better over seas. He doesn't have a consistent jumpshot, and no one knows how well his passing and overall court vision will translate to the pro's.

He's on pace, BUT HE ISN'T THERE YET. And of course he's dominant, but so was Bird, you just never had the chance to see him.

No, I'm not saying LBJ won't be effective in the 80s, I'm saying he would be less dominant. How many good post defenders are there now to stop a physical specimen like LeBron? How many are there back in the 80s? A lot more... I think the big differences today and the 80s are: 1. Much less physical. I think that's a good thing, as it got out of hand for a while. It does water down a lot of the elite wingmen today though, as I saw with my own eyes what Jordan did against superior defense and I KNOW for a fact today's elite wingmen couldn't do that. 2. Much fewer talented bigs. Probably the 15th best big in 1995 could be in the top 3 today. Its partly rules, but mostly a lack of development in bigs IMO. And there just seems to be fewer legit 7 footers around for whatever reason. 3. Less emphasis on winning. A lot, lot more teams are tanking for draft position or to save cap space than before. This means 4-5 really stacked teams and a lot of really mediocre teams trying to save cash, develop their projects, and just get by. It also means a lot less hotly contested games, and the NBA middle class is gone. And this is also partly why IMO the league has the perception of not being skilled -- because 15+ teams in the league on any given night are more worried about letting their players learn to dribble and pass than winning the game at hand. I think the league overexpanded, and rewards losers too much. It needs a revamp in a lot of ways. 4. More thuggish and "urban" than ever. This makes the league less mainstream than it was. Fewer tickets, less money, and more about living the life than the game a lot of the time. We all are here because we love the game, but face it -- the league isn't about basketball alone anymore. 5. More emphasis on 1s and half court game. Perhaps because its nearly impossible to find a big who can play inside out, perhaps because wings are so athletic its hard to find a consistent slasher, perhaps because players today do a great job of rotating and protecting penetration, a skilled setup man and 3+ guys who can spread the floor is the norm now. I think this is an improvement over the 90s, where you often played 2 man ball with 3 guys standing there, but at the same time I miss scoring bigs of the 90s and the fast break of the 80s. But guys like CP3 and Nash always amaze me. The problem with stats is you can spin em to prove any point you want to really. And stats don't take account for the intangibles. For example Chauncey Billups didn't have the best stats in Detroit. But you see the difference he has on Denver. Then you have players like Nash who under Dantoni and the right system had insane numbers but they were inflated because the system they played. Stats are a quick way to determine who is better but if the stats are close or even somewhat close you have to bring in everything else.

Stop downplaying the 80's, you do realize that was considered the golden age of basketball? The same era where a defender could throw you down on a drive to the basket and receive no calls? Not only would LeBron lead the leagues in crying after a no call, but he'd be the one affected by this the most. He lives off his dribble drive, the 80's post defenders wouldn't care two [expletive]s about how big he is. Would you consider Karl Malone a better scorer than Jordan? Statistically speaking, he is. But when you look at HOW they score and how efficiently they score, MJ takes the cake. You can throw all the stats you want at me, the fact is, Larry knew how to score in a variety of ways. He gets assists by driving into the lane, getting doubled, and kicking out to an open three point shooter. Does that make him a great passer? Now, I'm not downplaying his passing skills because I did acknowledge that he is a good passer, just not better than Bird who was able to do much more in an offense than LBJ. Let's talk about what Bird did when he came to the NBA. The Celtics were 29-53 before he came. Then in his rookie season the Celtics won 61 games. He did that without Mchale or Parish. He led them to the ECF too in his rookie season. Won a championship leading the Celtics while he was in his second year. Bird won 3 championships, and 3 MVP awards in his first 7 seasons. That's something Lebron isn't closed to in his first 7 seasons.

How exactly is LeBron the better scorer? If you're going to make these half assed statements, at least support them properly. Bird could shoot the lights out, he had an excellent post game as well. I get it, you have witnessed LeBron live, but get off his nuts, he isn't God.. LeBron is a great passer, but he's surrounded by 5-6 good three point shooters.. What offense does Cleveland run? Give the ball to LeBron and let him do whatever he likes. Bird has more talent than the Cavs obviously, which naturally would mean less scoring for Bird, right? Wrong, even with that talent, Bird was able to score 27 any night with ease on a better FG%. Bird is a better defender, better passer, rebounder, scorer, and leader than LeBron. Let's leave it at that. But I forgot, Bird isn't playing now, so we automatically have to assume what LeBron is doing has never been done before..

I hope you're kidding... I'd take Bird's stats over LeBron's in his prime any day of the week. We're talking about a guy who has averaged nearly 29, 11, and 7 before... Through 6 seasons, LeBron has been to the finals once and has one MVP award. Bird through 6 seasons had 2 titles and 2 MVP awards (and won both again in his 7th season). Bird was a much better passer, a much better shooter, a much better rebounder, and he's also the greatest clutch shooter in the history of the league. There's no way that you can say that LeBron is better than Bird. He might be more talented, but that doesn't make him a better basketball player. This thread feels like it's primarily ignoring 60 years of NBA history.

So we're going to take someone who hasn't played more games, hasn't scored as much, hasn't won more over someone who did? Wtf?

No, it shows that AT THIS POINT, Bird is the better player. Statistically he is, and he's more successful than LeBron. If I were to create a greatest players list, who's more likely to be in the top 10, LeBron or Bird? Would it look good to have someone who has accrued less stats, less MVP awards, and less rings over a player who we all consider to be the one who brought back excitement (with the help of Magic) into this world?

lol Like what?

Why not? We're talking about all time, right? What else am I supposed to bring up then? It's everyone's career we're putting into perspective, I won't shorten Bird's career just to make it a "fair" comparison. If people are willing to consider LBJ here, then be sure to look at the disadvantages, or I will just bring them up.

He still needs to win back my respect, I still support Gil and I'm very happy for him, but what he did was just not right and it hurt the team, but more importantly, it was the opposite of what Abe Pollin supported.

Take out the championships, and please at least try to look at this more objectively. In 13 NBA seasons, Larry Bird has... - 21,791 points - 5695 assists - 8974 rebounds - .496% FG - .376% 3PFG - 3 MVP's - 2 Finals MVP Aside from total career points, Bird doubles LeBron in every other statistical category... So what exactly were you saying no to? It's absolutely erroneous to even think a player who has 1 MVP on his belt and 7 NBA seasons can compete with a player who is considered a top 5-10 player of all time. I understand you grew up watching LBJ as I did, but respect what the legends of this league have accomplished. So don't give me this bull[expletive] about people constantly talking about rings, because even without the rings argument, this whole debate favors Larry Bird.

Very nice, good for him. Now hopefully he can live up to his word and win back the respect of the fanbase and his teammates. Not surprised he didn't get jailtime, I knew he wouldn't. He's continuing to rebuild his reputation.

Pullen is so clutch. My god, this kid is some talent.

Pullen is so clutch. Damn he was so close on that three at the end of the fourth. He had a nice look at it.

Stop being so narrow minded... It's clearly obvious there's more to it than just rings. There's not one thing you can legitimately say in this type of argument that supports LeBron. Larry Bird has him in almost every statistical category. He's just as good of a defender, better shooter, just as good of a rebounder, close to LeBron when it comes to passing, and he's a better leader.

I assume living in Kansas, you're either a fan of Kansas or Kansas State, but never both? That's just like here where I live, there's a good mix between Redskins and Ravens fans, but you never ever see a fan of both. I hate the Ravens, and Baltimore is like 20 mins away from me.

Amazing. Butler ftw!

These logo's are just sick: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs13/f/2007/076/1/b/OTRForums_com_Logo_by_N4S_GFX.jpg Always been a fan of your work.

Kobe still has Durant (and LeBron) on defense. Kobe still is a better leader as well. Durant however, is the better scorer.

I cannot believe people are voting for LeBron....wow, just wow..

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/65569/20100325/wizards_arena_sell_for_$550m/#ixzz0jE8sfJqk

You're talking like Drake is the next Tupac or Biggie.... Drake is [expletive], just give up. He's no where near the level of Cudi....

IF he's in the NBA, playing the way he has been, he won't be a role player.

I've listened to most of his songs, I heard about him before he blew up, and I never liked his music. No substance in his songs, his lyrics are boring as [expletive], and his rhymes are whack. But of course, it is my personal opinion..