Nitro

Shaq will probably start because his ego is far, far too large for the bench, and they don't need a mutiny against Doc like what supposedly happened in Cleveland. However, Jermaine should start. He fits the team's style much, much better with his defense. The Celtics will definitely take a hit next year defensively if Shaq gets major minutes. It will be REALLY interesting to see how Doc manages the C position when Perkins comes back relatively healthy.

Just a few... Jordan vs. Kobe Wilt vs. Shaq Duncan vs. Hakeem McGrady vs. Durant

I'll give Blazed 2 more days to post.

Ehh...I'd take Ron Harper over him. Short made the playoffs only 3x, 2 of them being first round knockouts. He also didn't do much other than score. Harper did a little of everything and played as an inregal part of how many championship teams? 4-5?

Phil Jacksn didn't create the triangle or its principles. Tex Winter did.

Michael Jordan. Amazing leaper, unmatched body control, and what made me put him over a guy like LeBron or even VC is his lightning quick first step.

Interesting. Gay Fish had more substance, but Straight Fish had the better flow. Overall, Gay Fish hit harder... 3-1

Haha...you go from AI to Noah...ok...

Magic Johnson. Simply put he revolutionized the PG position and there probably won't be another player like him in a very, very long time.

Off the top of my head... Ron Harper Career averages (15 seasons): 13.8PPG/4.3RPG/3.9APG/1.7SPG/44.6% shooting Best season (1989-1990): 22.8PPG/5.9RPG/5.3APG/2.3SPG/1.2BPG/47.3% shooting

You said... And in no way, shape or form was Duncan a better paser than KG. KG is the only big man I've ever seen average 6APG for a full season. He had multiple 5APG seasons. His passing is unmatched by any current big man. Also, there have been arguably a few better rebounders as well.

It's not like Duncan's a great FT shooter either, and Shaq's offensive game was not reliant on drawing fouls. It was reliant on dominating near the rim like arguably no one else in NBA history. He scored on higher volume and better efficiency than prime Duncan. He was the better scorer. Rings and overall offensive game doesn't make him a better scorer.

Haha...it goes with the territory of being a jumpshooter compared to low post player. But Duncan is not an extremely efficient post-scorer, and despite Dirk being a "miss 25% of the time" he only shoots about 3-4% worse than a prime Duncan, while shooting about 20% better from the FT line and being a much better clutch performer (both on last second shots and overall 4th quarter performance). I love Duncan, and he is one of the greatest post players in NBA history. But he couldn't score at the same volume Dirk can and isn't much more efficient. It's like saying Duncan is a better scorer than Kobe. He simply isn't. Umm...no. Prime Shaq averaged about 7PPG more than prime Duncan on much better FG%. Period. How about instead of posting a regular season scoring explosion, find me 1 game in Kobe's NBA Finals history in which he played better than Duncan did in either Game 1 or Game 6 of the 2003 Finals... Game 1: 32pts/20reb/6ast/7blk/3stl/11-17 shooting Game 6: 21pts/20reb/10ast/8blk/9-19 shooting

Eh...I'd shove Deng down Denver's throats along with a few others players (like Gibson) and see if they'd bite. Giving up Noah is a huge blow. He's certainly nowhere near the player Melo is, but at the same time having Boozer play the 5 and not having a strong defensive presence by his side (KT can be that in limited minutes) is a scary proposition. And in no way, shape or form is the Rose/Melo/Boozer trio better than Wade/LeBron/Bosh. And they won't fit together better than that trio would like the CP3/Melo/Amare trio would because Rose is not a great playmaking, pass-first PG. He's much more of a scorer. That'd be fine if Melo had LeBron's passing skills, but he doesn't.

Shaq was a better scorer. Dirk is a better scorer. But you could definitely make a case for him overall being better than Shaq. And definitely a much better overall player than Dirk.

Funny...just spent hours debating with Real Deal about who we'd rather take to build a franchise, prime Kobe (him) or prime Duncan (me), then you post this video. Thanks for sharing :glasses:

When I say prime I mean absolute peak seasons. He was still the best player in the game during the 2nd 3-peat, but he just wasn't the same player he was pre-retirement. He changed his playing style to accomodate his loss of athleticism, and as a result of the more jumpshot-oriented attack, he was less efficient and overall effective. When Wade hits 31 you'll see a similar trend. LeBron will probably be the same, but may start experiencing that slide a bit earlier since he has played far more minutes at 25yo than any player in modern NBA history. Also, not every player has that same 5 year window of prime basketball. I consider that window for TD to be from 2000-2003. For T-Mac it'd be 2002-2005. Dirk's had about a 6 year prime that keeps on growing. It really doesn't matter how long that prime was in this topic as long as it lasted a full season.

Internet bad-asses are hilarious...kinda.

Someone's not Livin' La Vida Nitro!

I used that as an example to show what another top 10 all-time wing player has done in terms of scoring explosions in the playoffs to show that Kobe's not exactly doing those exploits much at all in the post-season. More non-Jordan examples... Prime Kobe has 1 50pt game and 6 40pt games in 79 playoff games without Shaq. T-Mac has 4 40pt games in 38 career post-season games. Wade has 6 40pt games in 66 career post-season games. LeBron has 9 40pt games in 71 career post-season games. AI had 3 50pt games and 7 40pt games in 71 career post-season games. In other words, prime Kobe's number of major post-season scoring explosions are very ordinary compared to his peer IN THIS ERA. They are not unique. Comparing him to prime Jordan he gets blown out of the water in that regard. That really, really takes away from your arguement that his crazy scoring explosions are such a huge advantage against Duncan. Prime Duncan leading his team in nearly every major statistical category, anchoring an all-time defense and averaging 25/15/5/3 in the post-season is more impressive than Kobe's slight improvement over regular season stats and generally taking secondary defensive assignments, while not going off for those crazy dominant performances all that often (like MJ did, which is one of many reasons why the MJ-Hakeem debate is a lot different than the Kobe-Duncan debate). Then that's a pretty damn useless statement. My points earlier in this post show how Kobe without Shaq compares in terms of scoring outbursts to several of his current peers. Not very impressive. I was using stats from Kobe's peers to show that it's not unheard of to actually play efficient basketball against those teams for a full series. I could use hypotheticals and say, "Jordan would average 50% shooting against the 2008 Celtics, or would drop 40PPG against the 2009 Magic" but that's senseless. Instead I use tangible evidence from lesser talents who played better than Kobe did against those exact same teams. The fact that he was so inefficient with more help than those other players should speak volumes. Jordan was out of his prime. I'm talking absolute peak seasons. I call 2000-2003 Duncan's peak seasons. Jordan's best play was from '88-'93, and nothing much about his demenour or leadership qualities changed much from the first and second 3-peat. The only thing that changed was he lost a good deal of athleticism, couldn't finish around the rim as well, and as a result wasn't as efficient or effective. Kobe is a bit of a special case. He was not the same leader or polished offensive player in the 1st 3-peat that he was starting around 2006. There is NO WAY I'd want to build my franchise around the younger, more immature Kobe. His athleticism has declined in recent years, but his game is more polished and refined while staying just as efficient as he was when he had the extra boost from young legs. His overall peak in terms of having the mix of athleticism and skill was probably 2002-2007, but his effectiveness hasn't taken a hit as he's gotten older, while his leadership qualities have gotten a lot better. Also, his 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 seasons were very injury riddled which hurt his play. That's why I consider Kobe's prime to be '05-'10. Feel free to disagree, it's personal opinion. In case you forgot, Pippen actually did play in the post quite a bit. And regardless of if Kobe has to feed the post, Gasol takes a full 4 less shots per game than Pippen did at all points of his tenure during the championship years. Jordan in his last 2 Finals' appearances where he struggled still averaged more PPG than Kobe EVER has in 7 tries. Jordan's all-around stats in the Finals, not just scoring, blow Kobe's away. Assists, rebounds, steals, FG%, advanced stats like win-shares, offensive and defensive rating...they all trump Kobe's by a hefty margin. Also, to even hint that Kobe has EVER been restricted in terms of shot attempts is ludacrous. Since he started to hit his groove around 2002 he's ALWAYS had the greenlight to jack up 30+ FGA. Never said it's unheard of, but it's pretty common sense that when a player who relies heavily on driving to the basket loses a step or two, his FG% will plummet. For Kobe this was never the case because he was always primarily a jumpshooter since he really hit his groove, which is why with some extra work in the gym he's stayed at the same 45-46% shooting virtually his entire career (which has been an historically long one which is why Kobe is an unbelievable specimen). With Jordan, he went from being arguably the greatest slasher in NBA history to primarily a midrange player in the 2nd 3-peat. Still effective slashing, but not what he once was. And even after that transformation, he was still more efficient than Kobe ever has been...ever. Your point? Kobe's played in 7 Finals', Jordan 6. Jordan shot 43% or better 5x. Kobe only twice. Jordan never shot below 40% in any of those series'. Kobe did twice. I mean, it's pretty straight-forward. Missing an average of 3 more shots per games is a HUGE difference. If he missed 3 shots per game more that series the team would have lost as 3 of the Bulls' 4 wins were decided by 4pts or less. Once again, trying to rationalize rationalize rationalize history with unrational views. Stop. Please. Anyway, I'm done with this. It's getting tiring, off-topic and we're just gonna keep going in circles. But as always awesome to debate with you, B. It keeps my basketball knowledge sharp when I have to watch Team USA destroy Angola during the NBA off-season

On Front Street?!?

Depends on where you go. I've always had to go to ones in the hood (Plainfield, NJ) to sell my [expletive]. They give you like 1/4 of what the item is really worth, and less than 1/2 of what they will end up selling it for. As far as what they sell, it's usually electronics and crap. A ton of $1 bootleg DVD's.

Haha ok...first off [b]YOU[/b] brought up Jordan in this topic in comparing he and Hakeem to Kobe and Duncan. I wanted no part of bringing Jordan into this because I knew we'd get to the point where it'd be a pissing contest between me defending Jordan and you defending Kobe. Anyhoo... 1) Way to avoid the fact that I completely shutdown your arguement about Jordan and Kobe's overall post-season stats in their prime years. 2) Kobe's shot better than 43% only once in 7 Finals' appearances. Chop it, screw it anyway you want, that's not good. Jordan did it 4x in 6 appearances. Those teams you mentioned were not indestructable. Vince Carter averaged 30PPG on 47% shooting in 7 games against those 2001 Sixers. Wade averaged over 30PPG on 55% shooting against the 2010 Celtics (with NO help). LeBron, who supposedly tossed in the towel against the 2010 Celtics shot 45% against them for the series. Ray Allen shot over 44% in the 2000 series against the Pacers. My point? I don't need to compare Kobe to Jordan to show his FG % both in the regular and post-season is at or below par to his competition, both in the past and present (especially when you compare him to Wade and LeBron). Hell, in 2 of the 3 years during Jordan's 2nd 3-peat he shot a better FG% than Kobe EVER has in the regular season. And that was an out of his prime Jordan. 3) Jordan averaged 32PPG on 46% shooting against Russel in the 1997 Finals. He averaged 33.5PPG on 43% shooting in the 1998 Finals. Both series' he averaged more points than Kobe ever has in the Finals, and if Kobe put up those stats the shooting percentages would have been good for 2nd and 3rd best in Kobe's career in the Finals. 4) If you want Phil Jackson himself to say the one major thing Jordan has on Kobe is his 50%+ seasons, here ya go- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s First off, I slammed Kobe's Finals' performances because YOUbrought up Duncan's 2005 performance. Stop acting like I'm taking things out of thin air to use against Kobe. You're giving me the ammunition, gift-wrapped. Secondly, I didn't ignore Bell and Marion, and I showed what many of Kobe's peers did to those same players the same seasons. LeBron, Arenas, Allen and Melo especially TORCHED them consistently BOTH seasons. Lastly, I don't need to compare Kobe to Jordan to get my point across about his poor Finals' performances or FG%. Compare him to his other peers that can be considered as top 30 all-time. You'll see the same type of trend. They ran those defenses with a multitude of different rosters, the one constant being Tim Duncan. You'll see the same thing with Dwight Howard during his career. Big men can make that kind of impact regardless of who their teammates are. Then don't bring him up in non-relatable debates to promote Kobe.

It doesn't really matter who is defending those guys when the help defense is so god-awful. In the 2006 post-season they had Boris Diaw starting at Center. In 2007 they had one of the worst defensive bigs in the league, Amare, at Center. Bell and Marion were roasted on a regular basis by elite perimeter players because of this fact (along with the fact that Raja is ridiculously overrated defensively and Marion's strength isn't on-ball defense). Some stats... Dwyane Wade vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 1G, 25.0PPG, 2.0APG, 1.0RPG, 50.0% shooting 2006-2007: 0G LeBron James vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 45.0PPG, 9.0RPG, 7.0APG, 57.4% shooting 2006-2007: 2G, 32.0PPG, 7.5RPG, 5.5APG, 54.0% shooting Paul Pierce vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 30.0PPG, 5.0RPG, 3.5APG, 44.0% shooting 2006-2007: 2G, 30.0PPG, 5.0RPG, 4.5APG, 40.0% shooting Ray Allen vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 4G, 32.5PPG, 4.0RPG, 2.8APG, 49.4% shooting 2006-2007: 2G, 28.0PPG, 4.0RPG, 6.5APG, 47.6% shooting Carmelo Anthony vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 4G, 30.5PPG, 4.5RPG, 1.8APG, 53.9% shooting 2006-2007: 3G, 30.7PPG, 9.3RPG, 6.0APG, 53.5% shooting Gilbert Arenas vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 28.5PPG, 3.5RPG, 6.0APG, 46.8% shooting 2006-2007: 2G, 42.5PPG, 4.0RPG, 4.5APG, 51.6% shooting Allen Iverson vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 1G, 16.0RPG, 2.0RPG, 2.0APG, 30.4% shooting 2006-2007: 3G, 31.0PPG, 2.3RPG, 8.0APG, 53.3% shooting Vince Carter vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 21.0PPG, 7.0RPG, 4.0APG, 42.0% shooting 2006-2007: 2G, 27.0PPG, 3.5RPG, 5.0APG, 57.5% shooting Need I keep going? Or are you going to make the Raja/Marion tandem out to be like Jordan/Pippen to simply boost Kobe's legacy? They had good perimeter defenders but a horrible defensive scheme and help defense. No perimeter player in the NBA is going to lockdown a great offensive wing on a consistent basis without the help from his teammates and coaching staff. That happens to be precisely one of the main reasons TD is so much more effective defensively than Kobe. For a more recent example, look at what Dwight Howard is able to do with some horrible defensive role players. He has anchored a top 5 defense each of the last few seasons because a great defensive big can make that kind of impact. A perimeter player can't, not even Pippen. Also, those Suns teams were in the bottom 5 of the league in PPG and bottom half in opponent FG%. Their defensive stats looked average because their style of play forced teams to play out of character. If they were truly average defensively, they would have made the Finals at least once with that highly effective offense. Re-read my original post about that. I said since the middle of the 3-peat he hasn't had to do it. And as far as I am concerned, Kobe didn't really hit his prime until Shaq was gone. Since he hit his prime he has never had to take on the most difficult wing player defensively on a big stage. He's had Ariza and Artest to do it. Duncan pretty much has always had to do that since he arrived in the NBA, and had to do it in the big-heavy Western Conference. All the while playing all-time help defense and anchoring one of the top 5-10 defenses of all-time. And even if Kobe had plenty more tough defensive assignments over the years, and even if he kept every single one of those players below their regular season averages, it's not nearly the same impact as Duncan doing the same to big men while protecting the paint against any and all perimeter players trying to get deep into the lane and finish. Ok, let's talk strictly in Jordan and Kobe's prime years ('88-'93 for Jordan, '05-'10 for Kobe), where Kobe had arguably less help than Jordan overall to boost stats: Jordan post-season stats: 91G, 34.4PPG, 6.7RPG, 6.8APG, 50.0% shooting 50pt games: 3, 40pt games: 20 (twice as many as Kobe's career) Kobe post-season stats: 79G, 29.9PPG, 5.7RPG, 5.4APG, 47.0% shooting 50pt games: 1, 40pt games: 7 BTW, Jordan's career playoff average is 33.4PPG. Kobe's matched this in only three series his ENTIRE CAREER- In 2001 against the Kings, and in 2008 and 2009 against the Nuggets. But go ahead, keep rationalizing... I'm not saying Duncan is as good offensively as Kobe is...he simply is not. But in terms of effectiveness, the difference between their offensive games in their prime years is far less than their defensive games. I don't even see how that can be argued. Ha I can use the same methods regarding Kobe and use his low career FG % against pretty much every all-time elite wing player in modern NBA history...Jordan, Drexler, Wade, LeBron, Erving, Nique, Dantley, King, etc... And if we are talking Finals stats, Kobe's career stats in the Finals is arguably the worst among the all-time top 25-30 players. Do I even need to bring up his 38% shooting Finals against those same Pistons, where he didn't even grab more 3 boards per game and averaged less than 5 assists? While Duncan shot horribly he also played great defense and never grabbed single digit boards that series, and he blocked less than 2 shots only twice.

http://www.tmz.com/2010/09/06/ron-artest-los-angeles-lakers-car-ticket-chp-eagle-roadster-photo-picture/#comments-anchor LMAO. Ron Artest is the man.