Multi-Billionaire

I hope Boozer goes to Chicago, Miami gets Odom... Lakers getting worse.

You have CP3, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Devin Harris, Gilbert Arenas, Monta Ellis... where does he rank? You can count in rookies too if you'd like...

You're the one making the argument why should I look the stats to support your argument? Provide the stats to support your own argument. No stats, no proof, or maybe you're just making it up. If there's no link, print screen it whatever... Believe it or not, Camby might be in the Zach Randolph zone defensively. He's that bad. Like I said, his stats are deceiving. You saying Camby is an elite post defender is a proof his stats have deceived you. Of course the most obvious one that sticks out is his block per game, because that's what he does best. Otherwise, tell me what else would make you say "Camby is an elite post defender" lol... because you watched highlights of "Camby playing post defense"? Puhhhlease. Maybe you, who told me to watch more games and say I know no better than other teams' fans about Nugget players, are the one who should do more game/ player watching than me. But while his 2.0 bpg seems valuable think when a big man is not constantly patrolling the paint area. Instead of being inside the paint Camby is outside ready to swoop in for a block. Defensive three secs violation is stupid, because as a post defender you have to be aware that your presence in the paint means a lot, you can easily check out of the paint and check back in to avoid this... or by "guarding" a nearby opponent and you will never be called a defensive 3 sec violation. But Camby constantly leaves the the paint area empty. And if you're a scorer and you see a paint is empty what do you think first? Dunk right? Okay maybe layup for you, but you will go inside and not shoot. That's if you have a scorer mentality. And that's what happens with teams who use Camby's "services" ugh. So if Camby adds 2.0 bpg to the table, he also is the culprit for say 5-8 more surrendered layups/ dunks. Just because he was not in the paint, or he swoops in late and never makes the saving block. For every opponent basket he denies, he lets 3-4 easy baskets that even encourage the offense aggression of the other team and result in possibly even more baskets. This same theory also applies to AI. Just because he scores 20 ppg, it's supposed to be good right? Not really. If Ray Allen averages 18 ppg, drops 30 on him... that's surrendering 12 more points. So if AI scores 20 and his man scores 12 more points than his average, that's 20 - 12 = 8. So his real value on that night is only 8, and still have not accounted the turnovers, field goal percentage, etc, etc. And sadly with AI, he has a lot of nights where he surrenders more points than his opponents usually average. Mostly because of his defensive style. He has an awful lot of games where his efficiency value is minus. That's not an asset, that's a liability. I have to correct myself, that it's not coincidence our defense took a quantum leap by Camby and AI's departure. So not just Camby. Those extras baskets let by Camby, the gamble defense by AI and there you go... you have a perfect team defense that relies on everyone else on the team to save them... relying on Nene to clog the paint, or KMart to rotate for another failed defensive assignment... with those two gone, we no longer had players who gamble or risk on defense. We could finally become a true defensive team. Again you don't know me but act like you do. I criticized Camby a lot during his tenure in Denver, even people think I hate my own team's players more than I hate other teams' players. I wanted Nuggets to trade him, although not exactly for a second round lol I praised AI when he came but he quickly ticked people off because of his non-commitment on defense, street ball style all year, and first round exits, I wanted him gone. EDIT: also note, this is why playing positional defense, clogging the paint with hands up in the air, is often more meaningful than playing matador party block defense... Everywhere Shaq goes, there's concern that he would clog up the paint and make it tough for his own star teammate to penetrate. This is true because Shaq is usually in the paint area, and this has a reverse unintentional effect that he blocks the path to the rim and makes it tough for his own teammate. I hope this helps make sense why Perkins/ any other center "clogging" the paint, playing positional defense is a lot more valuable than someone who gambles from weakside and constantly have to leave the paint empty in order to do this.

It just shows I have watched the players more than a fan of other teams. When I see legit arguments I would not say they're wrong if they're right, vice versa. Your opinion of Camby is just... wrong. Doesn't mean anything if you can't show your stats. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1705-better-post-defender-marcus-camby-or-kendrick-perkins/#entry19204 Not many people have voted, but all the 5 people who have posted, say it's Perkins, and it's not even close. You can make your post in there too about Camby, be different than others. Then what else besides BPG that makes you say Camby is a better post defender than Perkins? The 82games.com? No proof because there's no link. Denial... Is that the best you can come up with? Who's putting words in someone's mouth? I didn't say because Melo is more experienced he's stronger. I said he's been a pro going through 6 seasons of pro conditioning and fitness designed a professional sports program. He's bound to be more fit and stronger than some college kids who're about the same frame. I never said he's stronger because he has "more experience", you're delusional. Who's acting like he knows the other person and knows what he's thinking? Your denial, self contradictory . Yeah right you live in US and makes you a more knowledgable poster than me? Someone who said Camby is an elite post defender is actually a laughing stock in Australia... and then using Perkins and say Camby is a better post defender merits public stoning in Australia... Okay not that bad but cmon man. Are you shying away because you just read your "Idiot's Guide to Post Defense in NBA aka the Anti Marcus Camby" book? Or was it because the comparison thread? It's going to be popular if you keep posting without bringing your A game.

Billups can be a coach's extension on the floor but does not mean the whole coaching thing falls solely on him. I'm talking about managing egos, which has been Karl's biggest weakness. He said that himself, he hates it, instead of embracing it because coaching multi-millionaire athletes, there has to be ego to be managed. You can't have 13 Chauncey Billupses/ players without egos on one team... it's impossible. All I'm saying is managing ego is part of coaching in the NBA and Karl has been notoriously trying to avoid that because he's just not good at it, and he hates it he's not good at it and never improves. From Payton and Kemp to Ray Allen, Big Dog, Tim Thomas in Milwaukee to USA coaching stint... he's spiraling down and instead of facing the problem he avoids it because it got him into trouble in the past (with players) and led to players tuning him out and led to him being fired. So now everytime there's a personnel or player management that needs to be addressed, he shies away because it got him into trouble before and it will get him into trouble again. But there's no such job anywhere where you get to pick which part you like to do the most and abandon the parts you hate... e.g. all kitchen hands must throw out garbage bags out when the restaurants close, but if you refuse to do that because you hate it, the restaurant will eventually fire you, because they're not functioning effectively with you causing someone else, who's not supposed to do it, do the job. So everytime there's players with attitude/ ego, he doesn't know how to deal with it. He's pulling hairs for the last 2 years before Chauncey came. With Chauncey, you have a player who constantly directs players on the court without fear of clashing with egos. With voice, then the group starts to click. They turned from a street ball team to a team playing efficient offense and tough defense. Chauncey is a true leader... Chauncey is what George Karl needs. But there has to be a line between coach and player, after all Chauncey is not paid to coach. And do you (if you were Chauncey) really want to do somebody's else work for free and he sits back and relaxes? When Chauncey stops doing it, it's evident Karl panics because this team does not hear what he says except when Chauncey speaks it for him. Chauncey is not without flaw, at some point, he has to fall back to his coach, and when his coach is clueless, that's when you realize you need somebody else. All I'm saying watch Lakers series again... it's evident to me... this team is going to tune him out sooner or later.

He would even wrestle a rebound away from a teammate lol I watched once Melo and Camby both went after a rebound and Camby actually bodied Melo he fell to the floor out of bounds I was like what the That guy really gets after them blocks and rebounds. Too bad in a wrong way.

Clips really need to change the logo, the jersey, because most often it works to turn around teams (Nets, Nuggets, Cavs, Mavs).

Who is the better post defender: http://www.all-nba-all-basketball.com/images/MARCUS_CAMBY1.jpg or http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/buck/img/feb05/bucks208c.jpg And extra question: who is the better defender overall? Can a mod pls add a poll on the question? Thx

The argument I gave was what "everyone gave"? How about the argument that I came up with after enduring Camby on Nuggets for 5 years and speaking from a fan's perspective? I don't know where you get those numbers, but provide with link where you get them. I don't believe them until I see them. Camby is one of the poorest one-on-one defenders you can have in this L. He is a great weak side shot blocker and he has a great timing. But already said before, any shot blocker with great timing can average Camby's numbers any day. The Birdman averaged 2.5 bpg in only 20 mpg, in comparison Camby averaged 2.1 bpg in 30 mpg. Bird's an excellent example of a shot blocker who does the defense from strictly the weakside, not one-on-one. Gasol repeatedly abused Birdman on the post at will with variety of moves, and Odom had his share too on the Bird. But although he plays eerily similar defense to Camby, I don't hate the Birdman because unlike Camby he plays with energy and is much more willing to defend the post and play positional defense. And this compensates his lack/ inadequacy of one-on-one defense. By you saying Camby is a better post defender than Perkins, it says a lot about your knowlegde of defense. By looking at stats and the player with more BPG is a better defender than the other who averages less BPG. You have a much better chance of protecting the rim playing positional defense like Perkins, simply by being there and clogging the paint makes it tough for scorers, than playing Camby defense. Of course putting up your arms helps and this also avoids unnecessary fouls. Just because you're not after the ball like Camby, does not mean you do not change the shot if you're big and put your hands up like Perkins. Sure I agree with you, shot blocking like Camby requires skill and effort but because you're playing harder does not mean you're playing smarter... and by you having the skill to be a shot blocker does not mean you are playing it the right way... and to play proper defense, you have to grasp the concept of playing it the right way. And this is what Camby has throughout his career refused to accept... because he knows if he plays proper defense he won't be able to prowl from weakside anymore and would not therefore collect his precious blocked shots. The Birdman on the other hand is aware his lack of ability to play proper defense can only be compensated with him hustling and giving energy 100% every time. He closes out on defenders with energy and sense of urgency. Defense is not quantified by how many blocks per game or steals per game, but how proper you play positional defense, staying in front of your man, moving your feet, etc. This is why Bruce Bowen was among the elite although he never averaged more than 1.4 spg and 0.6 bpg in his career. And Bruce rarely jumps to block shots, what does he do? Getting as close as he can to his man with his hand(s) up... again, just because you do not attempt to block it does not mean you do not change the shot. This is a concept where many players fail to grasp... they think to play defense they have to jump and try to block shots. Forget it because when you guard, especially an above average offensive player, chances are you wouldn't block his shot. If you're so on trying to block a shot, chances are he's going to pump fake you and drive to the rim. This is why many people think defense is harder to learn than offense, while it should be the other way around. I don't see how you can consider Camby an elite post defender without being a fanboy of his bpg stat, because that's how he's been deceiving eyes for throughout his career. lol you never had to endure having Camby on your team... so you never knew how he can hurt you defensively. All I can say is be grateful he's never on the Magic. Griffin is strong, but I doubt the college boy is stronger than Melo who has been a pro for 6 years with one of the best athletic trainer in the L harping on him to be on the gym and the diet. Griffin eventually can be as strong after many seasons in the L, but right now Melo can lay his [expletive] on the floor. I've watched his games my opinion does not change. He thrives on it, and when that's taken away, he's going to have to adjust. It's going to be a rough road for him. Did you really say Camby is an elite post defender? I'll make a poll and ask from OTR members and ask who is the better post defender: Marcus Camby whom you say an elite one at that, or Kendrick Perkins. I doubt you use a #1 overall pick so you can get a 16 and 9 player for two seasons and then he can disappear. In comparison, Allen Iverson, Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Yao Ming, LeBron James, Dwight, all have been at one point in their career the face of their respective franchises. Did you really imply Joe Smith wasn't a bust?

I'll take Moon over gangsta wannabe Barnes. That guy is never focused on a team but himself (how many fights was he involved in a Suns jersey alone?). Moon is a solid all around talent and a great teammate. He is also the better defender, he's better than Barnes at everything! But this move puzzled me, don't the Cavs have enough wings? Moon is the next Trevor Ariza.

What I don't like about Thabeet is his mental. I think his game is just ready now but mentally he might not be ready. But if Nuggets had had a 2nd pick and we had picked him, I would be pretty happy.

I wouldn't bank on a player who has very raw post moves to have a chance at being the best PF anytime soon. In games where it matters most, all those lanes for college and summer league dunks will completely close and if he doesn't have a post game to turn to, he's not going to take them much further. A post game is what makes a PF valuable, it makes them effective (Duncan/ Gasol) and when you are effective, you win more likely than when you're not. And when you don't bring enough wins, you don't deserve to be called the best at your position. At least not yet.

lol no he wasn't given the DPOY because "he played on a team that didn't play much D", he won it because he padded his stats. He would let offensive players drive around him to block their shots from the weakside, instead of staying in front of them. Playing this way would increase a shot blocker's chance of more shot blocking, he would probably get 3-4 blocks a game, but he'd also probably surrender 8-10 unnecessary layups/ dunks because he couldn't catch all. It's no coincidence our D improved once Camby left. Don't be fooled by individual numbers, it doesn't have anything to do with the team success in the first place. And since you're so sold on Camby's stats, do you now consider Birdman an elite post defender too? Hey he put virtually the same BPG in much less playing time. Cmon man I'll take Perkins and Dampier all day than Camby when it comes to post defending. Perkins is one of the best post defenders you can find in this L. Comparing Perkins to Camby in post defense is like a solid granite rock vs. a chopstick. You put a strong player with very basic post moves and put him on Camby and he'd probably score on him 8 out of 10 times. The same can't be said about Perkins, who is immovable. It reminds me of Pau Gasol in 2008 Finals who tried to back Perkins to the basket but Perkins just wouldn't move... because he's thick and strong. How can you move a big guy like that? But you have more success to "bully" Camby... because he's weak. Carmelo is not strong? Now you're the one who should do more player watching homeboy. If Melo didn't have body control, he wouldn't ever average 28 ppg in a season. What are you talking about? I was talking about the Nuggets series. And all of them bigs were in the paint with their hands up everytime Melo or a Nugget went inside. Now you're not gonna say I didn't watch enough Nugget games are you lol That in my opinion affects his offensive game. If you're relying on athleticism to score, and can't really shoot, then you're going to see a Dahntay Jones. Now I'm not comparing Blake to Jones here, but it's just players who relies on athleticism to score, can't really be a scorer in the L. And Jones averaged like 25+ ppg in summer league last year which is why he landed a roster spot on Nuggets. Jones is pretty skilled, when matched up against college/ summer league guys. But the L is a different story. From someone who said Camby is an elite post defender. It's good you point out the mental aspect. But so did Joe Smith back in 1995. He was ultra athletic, probably had more post moves than Griffin does, although the latter has more face up games. But Smith was also mentally ready. He averaged like 16 and 9 in his rookie season, which is not bad, but after his second year, he kept getting worse. I'm not saying Griffin will be a Olowokandi bust, but Joe Smith bust.

Karl deserves credit to make himself more open minded about players inputs... but the 2008-09 season was about the whole team including Karl jumping on Billups' back. And it ultimately wore out on Billups himself too when the coach is like "cmon Billups these players are not listening to me, help me out here." It's going to be a big problem...

Actually he does a decent job defending shooting guards... but you can't actually rely on him being a shooting guard. Offensively, he just can't be counted on to make/ create a shot unless he's wide open and even if he is, it's still not a good feeling for you as a team fan seeing him take the shot.

How quickly this changed, I think he finished with 1 pt today... lol

lol cmon man out of all posters, you'd be one of the least I'd expect say Camby is a "true elite post defender". Are you serious? Griffin has been doing this his entire college career: Melo is explosive but there's just no doing this once you're in the NBA (Btw I bring Melo up because Griffin is essentially Melo without the jump shot). Pau, Bynum and Odom "camped" their way to the title... not saying illegal because they were guarding someone who's close to the paint. Every time Melo tried to do this in the playoffs, there's always Pau, Odom or Bynum in his way... it's not going to be wide open, I'm just saying that, and it might be a big difference to finishing with his usual flourish. His post move still needs a lot of work. He is undersized, he will have major trouble against bigger guys like Perkins/ Dampier who just stand there with their hands up, his jumper is not there (consistent) yet. He is a rookie that I think will not live up to the expectation. Real Deal said he'd be the most NBA ready since Tim, but Tim does not rely his game on athleticism like Griffin does and Tim (when he entered the L) already had a 10 year veteran fundamental post moves.

I'm still not sold on Griffin... the NBA lanes won't be as wide open as in college/ summer league games. Wait til he sees a Dampier, Dalembert, Perkins, and Gasol and Bynum camp in the paint. That's when Thabeet can assert himself and when Griffin's weakness is expsosed.

Rob Kurz is a poor man's Brian Scalabrine... and isn't Kurz on TWolves summer league team?

$2.7 mil and worth every penny. I can't believe the Nuggets passed him

But it's not even close lol, it's not like you compare Stephen Jackson who can shoot and clutch but in terms and ball handling and playmaking he's a poor man's Hedo. And you lost Pavlovic and Ben Wallace. Z is old, I don't think he would put 13 and 8 as a bench player. Gibson is trash, he doesn't defend anymore and only hopes LeBron gives him the ball. Don't you think Parker would start over West?

Carter is stupid to still think about playing time at this stage of his career. At this stage, playing more minutes will not make him play better... he's already at his peak last season. I don't hate him like 99.9% of Nuggets fans do, but I'm starting to hope he goes away. He does a decent job putting his hands up and making it tough for shooters and run a team for a few minutes... but besides that, he is a liability for lack of skills, and the worst of the worsts and why Nuggets fans hate him is because Karl plays him a lot.

I would rather have he prove and get it next summer... He's still the one who publicly said he thought he'd quit or get fired in the 2008-09 season "but Billups changed everything"... have you ever heard someone say "you know what someone saved me from losing my job and for that I think I deserve an extension"? He also admitted to "mail it in" for two seasons in 2006-07 and 2007-08 seasons... no wonder I complained a whole lot about him looking disinterested in games during these seasons. I have been concerned about the players' body language in Game 5 and 6 of Laker series. Even Karl's favorite Billups who never starts issue with any coach, had a poor body language in terms of acknowledging when Karl speaks in the locker room. None of players sees Karl eye to eye, not even Billups. He's like a broken record... When Billups started hot in Game 2 of fourth quarter, Karl wanted to sub in AC for him, and when Billups went to the bench he shook his head. All these little things are not little, it's the general sentiment of a group of players interacting with its leader. They have to mesh well. I think at the start of 2008-09 season, when we acquired Billups, the energy was there all the way until first two rounds of playoffs... but when we started losing to Lakers... that's when the lows began... When you lose you're going to see players moan, complain, even point fingers at each other... it's how you react/ respond to that. When Billups does not step up for Karl, it's when Karl again loses his ground and is left figuring out what to do next... because he doesn't know what to do without Billups. Extension or not, it's not going to give Karl any edge to the players. I predict players will tune him out at the start of the season... although I hope we won't and get along just fine. This is a poor decision... if he's a lame duck so be it.

Kurz a poor man's Hedo? Puuhleassee... lol He can shoot yes, but he can barely move his legs... Hedo can blow past his defenders almost at will.