Michael Jordan Is Over-Rated

[Flash]

I hate when people use the excuse that he didn't play a full season when he was scored 55+ in the playoffs.

 

It makes absolutely no sense.

 

 

Also, Kobe Bryant has been fortunate to have good "Big Men", but he has still done more with less compared to Michael Jordan when he didn't have his "Championship" talent.

 

That's one game. He was out for a season and a half, that's a lot for any player. I guarantee Kobe loses too after missing that much time.

 

As for the more with less, Kobe won with Shaq. You underestimate just how dominant a force Shaq was at that time of the 3-peat. The only times Kobe didn't have much around him was from the time Shaq left until Gasol came. Jordan made the playoffs every single season in Chicago. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

Kobe also never had to play against the Celtics of the 80's or the Bad Boys. He also beat 2 great Utah teams with a pair of HOF'ers on their squad.

 

The one time Kobe played against a truly great team they got mutilated.

[JWaLL]

ECN why are you still talking? Yes, you are entitled to your own opinion (although a very incorrect opinion), but stop acting stubborn and trying to shut down what we are all saying like it isn't true or something. You are digging yourself a hole here and making yourself look worse than you already are.

[EastCoastNiner]

That's one game. He was out for a season and a half, that's a lot for any player. I guarantee Kobe loses too after missing that much time.

 

As for the more with less, Kobe won with Shaq. You underestimate just how dominant a force Shaq was at that time of the 3-peat. The only times Kobe didn't have much around him was from the time Shaq left until Gasol came. Jordan made the playoffs every single season in Chicago. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

Kobe also never had to play against the Celtics of the 80's or the Bad Boys. He also beat 2 great Utah teams with a pair of HOF'ers on their squad.

 

The one time Kobe played against a truly great team they got mutilated.

 

I'm not underestimating Shaq, and I'm sure many people here would tell you that I really like Shaq.

 

He would be my 1st over-all pick for a "Franchise" if I had the chance, so there is no way I underestimate him.

 

 

Yes, making the playoffs every single season is damn impressive, but I want you to look up the record of the Chicago Bulls for Michael Jordan in his first three seasons, and those records would not get you close to the playoffs today..

 

 

Also, the Celtics and Pistons were on the decline when Michael Jordan actually started winning "Championships".

 

Karl Malone and John Stockton are two of my favorite players, but the Utah Jazz team as a whole was not as good as people think they were,

 

Also, the Orlando Magic beat a Boston Celtics team with two HOFER's playing this season, but that doesn't mean they are a great team.

 

 

Also, thank you for actually giving reasons unlike "Gil Zero" who doesn't add anything because he knows absolutely nothing, and has yet to provide anything other than a list of stats. .

[JWaLL]

All you've done is bash me for giving my opinion and putting you in an awkward position to prove yourself since you contradicted yourself multiple times. You say it was unfair because Jordan had better teammates surrounding him, but then you say it was unfair because he had the ball more often? Explain please...

[Warren2ThaG]

How many rings would MJ have if Portland drafted him?

[EastCoastNiner]

All you've done is bash me for giving my opinion and putting you in an awkward position to prove yourself since you contradicted yourself multiple times. You say it was unfair because Jordan had better teammates surrounding him, but then you say it was unfair because he had the ball more often? Explain please...

 

I never said that. .

 

Find me EXACTLY where I said that it was unfair because Michael Jordan had better teammates.

 

Well, you won't because I never said that, and you still haven't provided anything besides the lists of stats.

[JWaLL]

Stubborn kid. I don't know why I am wasting my time. No one agrees with you, everyone agrees with my disagreement to your claim. This topic shouldn't even be opened anymore. Every other post is just you saying "You just give stats" followed by that laughing emoticon.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Gil-Zero

[Flash]

I'm not underestimating Shaq, and I'm sure many people here would tell you that I really like Shaq.

 

He would be my 1st over-all pick for a "Franchise" if I had the chance, so there is no way I underestimate him.

 

 

Yes, making the playoffs every single season is damn impressive, but I want you to look up the record of the Chicago Bulls for Michael Jordan in his first three seasons, and those records would not get you close to the playoffs today..

 

 

Also, the Celtics and Pistons were on the decline when Michael Jordan actually started winning "Championships".

 

Karl Malone and John Stockton are two of my favorite players, but the Utah Jazz team as a whole was not as good as people think they were,

 

Also, the Orlando Magic beat a Boston Celtics team with two HOFER's playing this season, but that doesn't mean they are a great team.

 

 

Also, thank you for actually giving reasons unlike "Gil Zero" who doesn't add anything because he knows absolutely nothing, and has yet to provide anything other than a list of stats. .

 

True that once Jordan won his titles those 2 dynasties were on the decline but after that he had to go up against some very good Knicks teams plus the West was very good and included some great teams including Seattle who won 64 games the year they played the Bulls IIRC.

 

Those Utah teams were excellent teams that were very well coached under Sloan and won over 60 games in 96-97 and 97-98.

 

Whereas the teams that Kobe played against while winning his rings Indiana won 55 games, Philly won 56, and NJ only won 52. The Magic had the highest win total of all at 59.

 

So you had these Laker teams playing teams that would've been 3 seeds in the West whereas Jordan's Bulls teams played teams with similar records to their own.

[EastCoastNiner]

True that once Jordan won his titles those 2 dynasties were on the decline but after that he had to go up against some very good Knicks teams plus the West was very good and included some great teams including Seattle who won 64 games the year they played the Bulls IIRC.

 

Those Utah teams were excellent teams that were very well coached under Sloan and won over 60 games in 96-97 and 97-98.

 

Whereas the teams that Kobe played against while winning his rings Indiana won 55 games, Philly won 56, and NJ only won 52. The Magic had the highest win total of all at 59.

 

So you had these Laker teams playing teams that would've been 3 seeds in the West whereas Jordan's Bulls teams played teams with similar records to their own.

 

I think that the records of teams nowadays is indicative of more balance throughout the NBA.

 

Also, the Seattle Sonics then were like the Dallas Mavericks of today in the sense that they had good regular season records, but were not really good in the playoffs, altough they did make the NBA Finals and WCF.

 

Also, I'd like to add that the were the #1 seed and lost to the #8 seed during the 1994 playoffs.

 

Also, I do not think that the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets were really good teams either, so I am not disagreeing with that.

 

 

Again, "Gil Zero", you have been doing the same thing in every post, where you make a claim that you can't support, and then call me stubborn and [expletive] like that.

 

Please, find me where I made the comments you were referring to.

[Diesel]

ECN before I begin let me tell you my last two paragraphs were to kingfish, not to you since you seemed confused.

 

This isn't a direct comparison to Kobe Bryant because it would not be fair for obvious reasons, but Michael Jordan had a losing record his first three seasons in the NBA.

 

Then don't open up your first post with a statement such as

"Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan"

 

or

 

"What exactly did Michael Jordan do better than Kobe Bryant?"

 

You basically opened up your statement comparing the two.

 

And MJ may have had a losing record, but his rookie year be brought the Bulls to the playoffs for their first of 14 consecutive appearences in the Jordan era.

 

MJ's 2nd year in the league he played 18 games in the regular season starting only 7 of them because of a broken foot. I'm not sure if that year should even count. However in the playoffs he scored 63 points against arguably the greatest team of all-time in the 86 Celtics which is the highest amount of points ever scored in the playoffs. Ever. More than Kobe or Wilt. He averaged an astonishing 44 PPG on 51% shooting in the series. This is coming from a 22 year old kid against arguably the greatest NBA team of all-time and when he's coming off a severe foot injury. Yeah

 

I'm not saying that Kobe Bryant guards the best guard on the opposing team anymore, nor did I say that Michael Jordan was a poor defender.

 

I'm simply saying that as his career went on, he became visibly slower, and received awards based on his reputation, and not his actual skill.

 

During his early-middle career, he was probably one of the "Too 5" defensive guards in NBA history.

 

You said that Kobe is a better defender than Jordan which isn't the case. You mentioned Jordan didn't always guard the best player. I reminded you that Kobe didn't either who you claim is better(which isn't the case). Young Jordan was way better defensively than any Kobe.

but I feel that Kobe Bryants ability to get any shot off and overall offensive skill-set is better than Michael Jordan's.

 

I don't care. Dirk has a much better overall offensive skill-set and can get a different arsenal of shots off than Prime Shaq, but that doesn't mean he's a better scorer. It's all about being dominant and nobody could stop MJ or force him into bad shots. It's why he routinely shot around 50% nearly his entire career.

 

 

Yes, I know that Michael Jordan stepped his game up in the playoffs, just like Kobe Bryant has done multiple times, but once again, stats don't tell the whole story when talking about a player stepping their game up.

 

Also, I never said that he played those teams in the playoffs, but the expansion of teams watered down the overall quality of the NBA.

 

lol dude just wow.

 

You use a watered down league as an excuse for Jordan's dominance. I hope you know that by bringing down the "overall quality" this affects every team including Jordan's bulls. Jordan proved to be able to play against the top competition and dominating them so I see a watered down NBA as a bull[expletive] excuse. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone/Stockton all had the luxury of playing in this watered down NBA during their prime yet all of them walked away with 0 titles during the years in which Jordan played a full season.

 

Lets get real right now, the Celtis, Pistons, and Celtics were aging, and they never played the Lakers until the Finals when the Bulls beat and older Lakers team.

 

And, I'm glad you mentioned "Big Men" because teams with them gave Michael Jordan an extremely hard time, and he only beat Shaq once, and never beat Hakeem in the playoffs, so I don't see your point.

 

I was talking about the 80s when I mentioned the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers. The Lakers were still a good basketball team in 91 by the way. James Worthy was only 29 at the time and was around the prime of his career. Magic Johnson averaged near a triple double for the entire playoffs with an amazing 22 PPG, 13 APG, and 8 RPG. He was still Magic as he was still All NBA 1st team and was the MVP of the league just one year ago. Byron Scott was still playing at a high level. And Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac more than made up for the loss of Kareem combining for 31 PPG and 15 RPG in the playoffs providing legit inside forces. The Lakers were still a damn good team. They went 11-3 in the playoffs up until facing Jordan's Bulls.

 

And, I'm glad you mentioned "Big Men" because teams with them gave Michael Jordan an extremely hard time, and he only beat Shaq once, and never beat Hakeem in the playoffs, so I don't see your point.

 

Yeah but how many times did Shaq lose to guys like Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, and Zo? He didn't see much of Hakeem and Robinson since they were out West, but he was 10-1 in playoff series against Shaq, Ewing, Zo with his only loss coming in a year in which he just jumped back into the NBA right at the end of the year. It was really his preseason for 95-96 in which he came back ready and determined leading his team to an NBA record 72 wins.

 

However, in the 1994-1995 playoffs, Michael Jordan had a 55 point game, but still managed to lose the series, to a team with a legitimate "Big Man".

 

People like bringing up the 55 wins Pippen led the Bulls to in 94. What about the Bulls in 95 before Jordan came? Not many people realize that team was 31-31 when Jordan announced he would come back. Jordan only averaged 27 PPG though in his comeback which was uncharacteristic of the 30+ he would get year in and year out. Not to mention he was working on his baseball game for the past year and a half. The Bulls went 13-4 with Jordan back and it helped them get 47 wins which wasn't that good of a seed. Nonetheless without Homecourt they upset the higher seeded Charlotte team with a "dominant bigman".

 

With a full season to get in basketball shape and if Jordan returned earlier to get the Bulls homecourt throughout the playoffs there's little doubt Jordan's Bulls would've been playing Hakeem in the Finals that year. The guy got back into basketball right at the moment after playing baseball he wasn't preparing at all.

[kingfish]

I think Kobe is the only player ever to lead a team to a championship with the 2nd option being soft.

[Flash]

I think Kobe is the only player ever to lead a team to a championship with the 2nd option being soft.

 

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/monofail.jpg

[EastCoastNiner]

ECN before I begin let me tell you my last two paragraphs were to kingfish, not to you since you seemed confused.

 

 

Then don't open up your first post with a statement such as

"Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan"

 

or

 

"What exactly did Michael Jordan do better than Kobe Bryant?"

 

You basically opened up your statement comparing the two.

 

 

I don't think you understood my point.

 

I was saying that Kobe Bryant was fortunate(yes, he was fortunate enough to come into the NBA on a good team), whereas Michael Jordan wasn't.

 

HOWEVER, I was using another excellent player that was drafted by a [expletive]ty team to compare with Michael Jordan since it wouldn't be fair to use Kobe Bryant's first few seasons.

 

 

And MJ may have had a losing record, but his rookie year be brought the Bulls to the playoffs for their first of 14 consecutive appearences in the Jordan era.

 

MJ's 2nd year in the league he played 18 games in the regular season starting only 7 of them because of a broken foot. I'm not sure if that year should even count. However in the playoffs he scored 63 points against arguably the greatest team of all-time in the 86 Celtics which is the highest amount of points ever scored in the playoffs. Ever. More than Kobe or Wilt. He averaged an astonishing 44 PPG on 51% shooting in the series. This is coming from a 22 year old kid against arguably the greatest NBA team of all-time and when he's coming off a severe foot injury. Yeah

 

 

Just follow along for a second.

 

I know you're an Eagles fan, and I'm sure that you'd be pretty pissed if the Eagles finished with a record of 10-6, and missed the playoffs, but the 49er's made the playoffs with a losing record of 7-9.

 

I'm sure you would say that the 49er's playoff birth was not impressive because they had a losing record.

 

The first three years that Michael Jordan made the playoffs was with a losing record, and that is not really impressive to me by any means.

 

 

Also, you aren't making too much sense when you say that he scored 63 points in the playoffs after recovering from a broken foot, which is excellent.

 

I'm pretty damn sure that if you are scoring 63 points in the playoffs, you are healthy.

 

I'm saying this because you are trying to say that Michael Jordan was away from the game, and it effected him, although he scored 55 points in the playoffs the year he came back, which was impressive like Michael Jordan scoring 63 in 1986.

 

However, there is one major difference in those series......the Chicago Bulls lost against the Orlando Magic........without Horrace Grant who was their interior presence.

 

I am not saying Horrace Grant is Shaq, but he played a major roll in the Chicago Bulls first three "Championships" that Michael Jordan won, and the one season that Michael Jordan didn't have Horrace Grant, which was the season before Dennis Rodman arrived, he lost to the Orlando Magic.

 

You said that Kobe is a better defender than Jordan which isn't the case. You mentioned Jordan didn't always guard the best player. I reminded you that Kobe didn't either who you claim is better(which isn't the case). Young Jordan was way better defensively than any Kobe.

 

Where di I say that Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Michael Jordan?

 

I really don't think I said that, and if I did, it was a spur of the moment thing while trying to make my case.

 

However, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, and I was just saying that Michael Jordan was over-rated on defense later in his career.

 

 

I don't care. Dirk has a much better overall offensive skill-set and can get a different arsenal of shots off than Prime Shaq, but that doesn't mean he's a better scorer. It's all about being dominant and nobody could stop MJ or force him into bad shots. It's why he routinely shot around 50% nearly his entire career.

 

Don't be stupid.

 

Shaq and Dirk are not even comparable in terms of their game, and I still believe that Kobe Bryant can dominate a game offensively more than Michael Jordan could.

 

lol dude just wow.

 

You use a watered down league as an excuse for Jordan's dominance. I hope you know that by bringing down the "overall quality" this affects every team including Jordan's bulls. Jordan proved to be able to play against the top competition and dominating them so I see a watered down NBA as a bull[expletive] excuse. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone/Stockton all had the luxury of playing in this watered down NBA during their prime yet all of them walked away with 0 titles during the years in which Jordan played a full season.

 

I'm not using it as a major reason for his dominance, but I do believe that it was a factor, and how the hell would it effect that Chicago Bulls in a negative way when they weren't an expansion team?

 

 

 

I was talking about the 80s when I mentioned the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers. The Lakers were still a good basketball team in 91 by the way. James Worthy was only 29 at the time and was around the prime of his career. Magic Johnson averaged near a triple double for the entire playoffs with an amazing 22 PPG, 13 APG, and 8 RPG. He was still Magic as he was still All NBA 1st team and was the MVP of the league just one year ago. Byron Scott was still playing at a high level. And Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac more than made up for the loss of Kareem combining for 31 PPG and 15 RPG in the playoffs providing legit inside forces. The Lakers were still a damn good team. They went 11-3 in the playoffs up until facing Jordan's Bulls.

 

The Lakers were not the Lakers of the 1980's at the same time though, and for some reason, I thought Magic Johnson was somewhat injured in that series, but Brandon says he wasn't, so I guess I'll agree with him about that.

 

Vlade Divac and Same Perkins are no Kareem Abdul Jabar at the same time, and didn't instill that same fear into the opposing teams.

 

I'm not saying that the Chicago Bulls didn't earn this Championship because they did, but to say that the Lakers weren't on the downfall while the Chicago Bulls were on the rise is wrong.

 

 

 

Yeah but how many times did Shaq lose to guys like Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, and Zo? He didn't see much of Hakeem and Robinson since they were out West, but he was 10-1 in playoff series against Shaq, Ewing, Zo with his only loss coming in a year in which he just jumped back into the NBA right at the end of the year. It was really his preseason for 95-96 in which he came back ready and determined leading his team to an NBA record 72 wins.

 

Alright, I get your point about the 10-1 record, but again, as many people like to do, you are using the excuse that he "jumped back into the NBA right at the end of the year", even though he was healthy enough to score 55 points, just like he was healthy enough to score 63 in 1986.

 

The only difference was Horrace Grant was no longer on the Bulls, and coincidentally, was on the Orlando Magic, the team that the Chicago Bulls lost to.

 

 

 

People like bringing up the 55 wins Pippen led the Bulls to in 94. What about the Bulls in 95 before Jordan came? Not many people realize that team was 31-31 when Jordan announced he would come back. Jordan only averaged 27 PPG though in his comeback which was uncharacteristic of the 30+ he would get year in and year out. Not to mention he was working on his baseball game for the past year and a half. The Bulls went 13-4 with Jordan back and it helped them get 47 wins which wasn't that good of a seed. Nonetheless without Homecourt they upset the higher seeded Charlotte team with a "dominant bigman".

 

With a full season to get in basketball shape and if Jordan returned earlier to get the Bulls homecourt throughout the playoffs there's little doubt Jordan's Bulls would've been playing Hakeem in the Finals that year. The guy got back into basketball right at the moment after playing baseball he wasn't preparing at all.

 

Most of the points you made here I adressed in the previous paragraphs that I wrote.

 

If you want me to adress any of these points, tell me, and I will.

 

 

Also, I just want to know how the Chicago Bulls only lost two more games the season after Michael Jordan first retired.

 

And, yes, I am aware that the Chicago Bulls did not win the "Championship.

 

 

Also, just to compare Michael Jordan to other great players that have retired, these are the win differentials in the teams that lost their best player:

 

 

Bill Russel- 14 less wins

 

Wilt Chamberlain- 13

 

Oscar Robertson- 21

 

Larry Bird- 15

 

Magic Johnson- 15

 

Michael Jordan- 2

 

Also, not all of those teams made the playoffs, but out of the teams that did, the Chicago Bulls had the best record out of any of the teams.

[JYD]

LOL. When someone comes on here and says Jordan is overratetd, and Kobe is better than him, you realize a few things;

 

A. The person doesn't know basketball. Plain and Simple, they can't play it, they have no aspect what-so-ever on how the game is played.

 

B. The person has a love-fest for Kobe. Ok, I don't hate Kobe, but lets be honest here, is an awesome and GREAT player? Absoulutely, but not to try to offend anyone personally, some people really are on his dick on this forum, more so than anywhere I've ever seen.

 

C. The only part of the game that Kobe Bryant is better at than Michael Jordan is shooting, specifically the mid-range game. You can certainly argue Kobe is the best mid-range jump shooter the game has ever seen.

 

D. Michael Jordan was better in every other aspect: Defense, Offense, and making his teammates better. Oh, and not to mention he has SIX Championships, and SIX Championship MVP's. Kobe has 4 Championships, 3 with one of the best Centers of all time, when that Center was in his prime.

 

E. Some of the "Jordan is overrated" crew may say I'm just a Jordan fan, or "I'm on his dick." Actually, no, I hated him growing up because he always killed my Knicks. But there becomes a time you put bias aside and realize the game's greatest player.

 

Case closed, it's that simple.

[Diesel]

I don't think you understood my point.

 

I was saying that Kobe Bryant was fortunate(yes, he was fortunate enough to come into the NBA on a good team), whereas Michael Jordan wasn't.

 

brah you said in quotations that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan. I'm not talking about first few seasons in the NBA. Your saying overall and in general Kobe Bryant is a better player which is not the case.

 

 

Also, you aren't making too much sense when you say that he scored 63 points in the playoffs after recovering from a broken foot, which is excellent.

 

I'm pretty damn sure that if you are scoring 63 points in the playoffs, you are healthy.

 

He was rusty from playing so little during that entire year. It's only obvious. It's amazing how he can just come in during the playoffs and score 63 points in a game. Try not playing basketball for a good 6 months or so. See if your shot is effected from that and come back to talk to me.

 

However, there is one major difference in those series......the Chicago Bulls lost against the Orlando Magic........without Horrace Grant who was their interior presence.

 

I am not saying Horrace Grant is Shaq, but he played a major roll in the Chicago Bulls first three "Championships" that Michael Jordan won, and the one season that Michael Jordan didn't have Horrace Grant, which was the season before Dennis Rodman arrived, he lost to the Orlando Magic.

 

Yes Horace Grant was a key contributer of the team. Point? All championship teams have key contributers. Take Lamar Odom off this years Lakers and they wouldn't have won it all. Great Teams win championships and great players only help boosting the percentage of winning. Obviously a team of Jordan and 4 Rookies isn't going to win championships nor would a team of Kobe + scrubs, or anyone else in the history of basketball in that case.

 

Where di I say that Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Michael Jordan?

 

Right here brah

 

"What exactly did Michael Jordan do better than Kobe Bryant?

 

He's not a better pure scorer, not a better defender(most over-rated aspect of his game), and he did NOT make his team-mates better."

 

Like the 2nd thing you said in your initial post.

 

I'm not using it as a major reason for his dominance, but I do believe that it was a factor, and how the hell would it effect that Chicago Bulls in a negative way when they weren't an expansion team?

 

Exactly so the only teams it effects are the expansion teams. None of which Jordan has to even encounter in the playoffs where he dominated and won championships against the legit clubs. It didn't matter one bit.

 

The Lakers were not the Lakers of the 1980's at the same time though, and for some reason, I thought Magic Johnson was somewhat injured in that series, but Brandon says he wasn't, so I guess I'll agree with him about that.

 

Vlade Divac and Same Perkins are no Kareem Abdul Jabar at the same time, and didn't instill that same fear into the opposing teams.

 

I'm not saying that the Chicago Bulls didn't earn this Championship because they did, but to say that the Lakers weren't on the downfall while the Chicago Bulls were on the rise is wrong.

 

Magic was injured in the 90 Finals which was the year before that. Maybe that's what your thinking of. The Lakers posted a 112.1 Offensive Rating that year and a 105.0 defensive rating. In 1988 they won the championship with a 113.1 Offensive Rating and a 107.3 Defensive rating. Very similar numbers and they were actually superior defensively even without Kareem and Cooper.

 

When the Lakers won the title in 1988 Kareem was 40 years old and averaging 14 PPG and 5 RPG in the playoffs. The production of Vlade and Perkins was easily superior to that old Kareem.

 

The Lakers were only on the downfall because that would be Magic Johnsons last real season with the team. They were still winning the same amount of regular season games they'd normally win that year. Noone saw his HIV thing coming.

Alright, I get your point about the 10-1 record, but again, as many people like to do, you are using the excuse that he "jumped back into the NBA right at the end of the year", even though he was healthy enough to score 55 points, just like he was healthy enough to score 63 in 1986.

 

The only difference was Horrace Grant was no longer on the Bulls, and coincidentally, was on the Orlando Magic, the team that the Chicago Bulls lost to.

 

Ok dude I just owned you on your claim of Jordan losing to teams with dominant bigmen and I was merely explaining some more details about that one loss. The Bulls wre 31-31 when Jordan decided to come back and 14-3 with him playing. Had Jordan been playing he would've been in better basketball shape and posted superior numbers to his 27 PPG and they would've gotten a better seed.

 

It's a known fact Jordan wasn't in the best of shape that series. He airballed a potential game winning shot and had the ball stripped from him which blew the game against Orlando. Nick Anderson had some words to say too upon the Bulls elimination

 

"He didn't look like the old Michael Jordan," remarked Magic guard Nick Anderson. Anderson took a lot of heat for that comment, but it was true.

 

Deep down, Jordan knew it, too. So after the Bulls were eliminated by the Magic in six games, he rededicated himself to becoming the old Michael Jordan again.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1250345

 

The guy was playing baseball for a year and a half. Obviously he was rusty and we saw what happened when he rededicated himself to playing basketball again.

 

Bill Russel- 14 less wins

 

Wilt Chamberlain- 13

 

Oscar Robertson- 21

 

Larry Bird- 15

 

Magic Johnson- 15

 

Michael Jordan- 2

 

Russell: The Celtics also lost Hall of Fame player Sam Jones to retirement the same year as Russell. Two Hall of Fame players retiring is going to take quite the toll.

 

Wilt: Jerry West(the effing logo!) missed more than 50 games the next season and didn't play in the playoffs. Probably the hird best SG of all-time missing the majority of the year. Combine that with losing one of the top 3 centers of all-time and your going to see a huge drop off.

 

Oscar: 18 PPG scorer Lucious Allen also missed the entire season.

 

Bird: His team was only worse by 3 games, I'm not sure where your getting your information from.

 

Magic: James Worthy missed half the year and the playoffs as well. Divac missed more than half the year as well. Injuries certainly did it's job as did the loss of Magic.

 

Most of these can be explained. Losing a HOF player is bad enough, but there were other losses. The one that really surprised me was Oscar Robertson though. That decrease was crazy.

[EastCoastNiner]

brah you said in quotations that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan. I'm not talking about first few seasons in the NBA. Your saying overall and in general Kobe Bryant is a better player which is not the case.

 

 

 

 

He was rusty from playing so little during that entire year. It's only obvious. It's amazing how he can just come in during the playoffs and score 63 points in a game. Try not playing basketball for a good 6 months or so. See if your shot is effected from that and come back to talk to me.

 

 

 

Yes Horace Grant was a key contributer of the team. Point? All championship teams have key contributers. Take Lamar Odom off this years Lakers and they wouldn't have won it all. Great Teams win championships and great players only help boosting the percentage of winning. Obviously a team of Jordan and 4 Rookies isn't going to win championships nor would a team of Kobe + scrubs, or anyone else in the history of basketball in that case.

 

 

 

Right here brah

 

"What exactly did Michael Jordan do better than Kobe Bryant?

 

He's not a better pure scorer, not a better defender(most over-rated aspect of his game), and he did NOT make his team-mates better."

 

Like the 2nd thing you said in your initial post.

 

 

 

Exactly so the only teams it effects are the expansion teams. None of which Jordan has to even encounter in the playoffs where he dominated and won championships against the legit clubs. It didn't matter one bit.

 

 

 

Magic was injured in the 90 Finals which was the year before that. Maybe that's what your thinking of. The Lakers posted a 112.1 Offensive Rating that year and a 105.0 defensive rating. In 1988 they won the championship with a 113.1 Offensive Rating and a 107.3 Defensive rating. Very similar numbers and they were actually superior defensively even without Kareem and Cooper.

 

When the Lakers won the title in 1988 Kareem was 40 years old and averaging 14 PPG and 5 RPG in the playoffs. The production of Vlade and Perkins was easily superior to that old Kareem.

 

The Lakers were only on the downfall because that would be Magic Johnsons last real season with the team. They were still winning the same amount of regular season games they'd normally win that year. Noone saw his HIV thing coming.

 

 

Ok dude I just owned you on your claim of Jordan losing to teams with dominant bigmen and I was merely explaining some more details about that one loss. The Bulls wre 31-31 when Jordan decided to come back and 14-3 with him playing. Had Jordan been playing he would've been in better basketball shape and posted superior numbers to his 27 PPG and they would've gotten a better seed.

 

It's a known fact Jordan wasn't in the best of shape that series. He airballed a potential game winning shot and had the ball stripped from him which blew the game against Orlando. Nick Anderson had some words to say too upon the Bulls elimination

 

"He didn't look like the old Michael Jordan," remarked Magic guard Nick Anderson. Anderson took a lot of heat for that comment, but it was true.

 

Deep down, Jordan knew it, too. So after the Bulls were eliminated by the Magic in six games, he rededicated himself to becoming the old Michael Jordan again.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1250345

 

The guy was playing baseball for a year and a half. Obviously he was rusty and we saw what happened when he rededicated himself to playing basketball again.

 

 

 

Russell: The Celtics also lost Hall of Fame player Sam Jones to retirement the same year as Russell. Two Hall of Fame players retiring is going to take quite the toll.

 

Wilt: Jerry West(the effing logo!) missed more than 50 games the next season and didn't play in the playoffs. Probably the hird best SG of all-time missing the majority of the year. Combine that with losing one of the top 3 centers of all-time and your going to see a huge drop off.

 

Oscar: 18 PPG scorer Lucious Allen also missed the entire season.

 

Bird: His team was only worse by 3 games, I'm not sure where your getting your information from.

 

Magic: James Worthy missed half the year and the playoffs as well. Divac missed more than half the year as well. Injuries certainly did it's job as did the loss of Magic.

 

Most of these can be explained. Losing a HOF player is bad enough, but there were other losses. The one that really surprised me was Oscar Robertson though. That decrease was crazy.

 

A lot of this stuff you had pretty much mentioned before, and some of the stuff I agree with, so I'm not gonig to comment on the whole thing because we are just going to go back and forth.

 

However, I just a few things to say:

 

- The part where I said Kobe Bryant was a better defender, I probably thought he was when I was typing because I was writing the rest of my argument about Michael Jordan, and he is probably not a better defender, and I have given Michael Jordan credit for his defense in his early years.

 

- Why do you keep talking about Michael Jordan being rusty when I have already told you that the two seasons people have said he was "rusty" in, he dropped 63 and 55?

 

That is not rusty, plain and simple, any way you put it.

 

- You mention that Kareem Abdul Jabar had not been as good as he used to and that the Lakers were better off with Same Perkins and Vlade Divac, but you forget to mention Michael Cooper, who was the Lakers defensive stopper, and had retired the year before.

 

Seriously, are going tell me that if Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are out for the NBA Finals and the Cavs beat them, with Andrew Bynum and Sasha Vujacic filling in for them that they are the same team?

 

- Also, I didn't mean to say that the Boston Celtics lost 15 more games when Larry Bird retired, but rather lost 15 more games the season that he only played 6 games in.

Edited July 7, 2009 by EastCoastNiner

[J-Rat]

I love how ECN's ally in this topic, kingfish, is a HUGE Lakers fan.

 

Kingfish:

Team Rep: Lakers

Fav Player: Kobe/Ron-Ron/Pau

 

That says it all. Now stop before you look even worse, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to suggest Kobe is better or you're too young to have seen MJ play.

[EastCoastNiner]

I love how ECN's ally in this topic, kingfish, is a HUGE Lakers fan.

 

Kingfish:

Team Rep: Lakers

Fav Player: Kobe/Ron-Ron/Pau

 

That says it all. Now stop before you look even worse, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to suggest Kobe is better or you're too young to have seen MJ play.

 

I love how you added something to this thread.

 

 

There are about 3-4 people that have actually provided any legitimate reasons in this thread, and you are not one of them.

[J-Rat]

I love how you added something to this thread.

 

 

There are about 3-4 people that have actually provided any legitimate reasons in this thread, and you are not one of them.

lol then i guess you and me have something in common, we haven't added any insight to this thread.

[kingfish]

I love how ECN's ally in this topic, kingfish, is a HUGE Lakers fan.

 

Kingfish:

Team Rep: Lakers

Fav Player: Kobe/Ron-Ron/Pau

 

That says it all. Now stop before you look even worse, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to suggest Kobe is better or you're too young to have seen MJ play.

I never said Kobe was better then MJ. So you are the idiot my friend.

[EastCoastNiner]

lol then i guess you and me have something in common, we haven't added any insight to this thread.

 

Terrible response considering I have provided many reasons.

[Diesel]

- Why do you keep talking about Michael Jordan being rusty when I have already told you that the two seasons people have said he was "rusty" in, he dropped 63 and 55?

 

It's because Michael Jordan was that damn good. I'm not sure if you read my post, but Nick Anderson noticed he wasn't up to his usual game and noticed some rustiness. A guy he was playing against.

 

- You mention that Kareem Abdul Jabar had not been as good as he used to and that the Lakers were better off with Same Perkins and Vlade Divac, but you forget to mention Michael Cooper, who was the Lakers defensive stopper, and had retired the year before.

 

Seriously, are going tell me that if Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are out for the NBA Finals and the Cavs beat them, with Andrew Bynum and Sasha Vujacic filling in for them that they are the same team?

 

Cooper left because the Lakers didn't want him anymore. Neither did any team. He went over to play in Italy because the Lakers didn't want him anymore. He lost a step by 1990 and wasn't nearly the same defensive stopper that he was a few years prior to that.

 

Kareem Abdul Jabbar at age 40 and an old Michael Cooper are far from Kobe Bryant and PAu Gasol too so don't even try it. Cooper couldn't get a job and Kareem was averaging 14 PPG and 5 RPG in his last year. Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA and Gasol was an All NBA player.

[EastCoastNiner]

Kobe Bryant is definitely a superior player to Michael Jordan. I can't stand this guy, and he needed to be carried to all of his championships.

 

"Oh, let me retire, and have Horrace Grant leave and do nothing when I come back and have people make excuses for me. Oh, but I'll come back now because Rodman will help carry my ass".

 

Easily the most over-rated athlete ever.

[Flash]

Let the lulz ensue.

[NomarFachix]

There is no hyphen in the word overrated.